Need help ... Best courses in Oahu, Maui and the Big Island???

« **Reply #25 on:** December 23, 2003, 03:20:12 PM »

As an FYI -- here's the latest GW listing for Hawaii ...

1). Prince Course, #33 overall best modern
2). Kapalua (Plantation) #44 overall best modern
3). Mauna Kea, #69 overall best modern
4). Challenge at Manele Bay, #79 overall best modern
5). Kauai Lagoon
5). Poipu Bay
7). Koolau

. Dunes at Maui Lani
9). Wailea GC
10). Makena (North)

Just a quick question -- how much different is Hawaii than Florida for quality golf architecture? I don't doubt Hawaii isn't dead flat like Florida but does it offer more of quality golf or is it as Todd E describes -- fun stuff & nothing more?

« **Reply #26 on:** December 24, 2003, 12:37:21 AM »

Quote from: Matt_Ward on December 23, 2003, 03:20:12 PM

Just a quick question -- how much different is Hawaii than Florida for quality golf architecture?

This is an interesting question and the more I thought about it, the fewer quality courses I could think of. I'm guessing here but quality bar has been raised very slowly. It all began with the two Raynor courses and they don't really have any Raynor left and are not that interesting.

Mauna Kea (1965) was really the first resort course capable of hosting world class players. The Prince (1990) and Plantation brought the quality notch up then the two courses on Lanai followed. Koolau was always a freak show. The Dyes tried to bring some quality yet those courses never really became appreciated. Royal Kunia and Nanea are a cut above.

Its an interesting history although quality is looking up especially on the Big Island. Tom Doak may have a project on Kona and I believe Fazio is also building on the Big Island.

« **Reply #27 on:** December 24, 2003, 10:46:09 AM »

Wailea Blue Course -- Built in the late 1960s -- Arthur Jack Snyder -- very classic and open with interesting croppings of lava and graceful fairways.

Volcano G & CC -- Out of the way and back in time -- a classic course with two very different nines

« **Reply #28 on:** December 24, 2003, 03:06:40 PM »

I will second (or third?) the vote for Mid-Pac CC on Oahu...out of the way location, and just a ncie "old" Hawaiian country club setting. Enjoyed my round there very much.

My recollections of the Prince course on Kauaii are similar to those above...played it years ago before my true architectural eyes were opened, but it is a fun place to play no matter what else is said here...and watch out for that opening hole!!!

Kapalua Plantation is a solid #1 choice for Maui. I also played Makena North which was a good test of golf and some great views...I also hear the Wailea complex offers a nice assortment of courses. The Huckster might be able to chime on on that one.

On the Big Island, the only decent place I played was Mauaa Kea. Although not the best golf on this planet, if you take it for it's historical significance, location and views it is also not a bad place to play either.

Hell...staring out my mother-in-law's window here in Cleveland watching the snow come down, I'd take just about ANYPLACE I could tee it up right now!

« **Reply #29 on:** December 25, 2003, 06:11:04 PM »

Matt:

Response #2 (not much different than #1 but prompted by some other posts.

Oahu:

1) Oahu CC
2) Kaneohe Clipper (north shore through the Pali Tunnel)
3) Royal Kunia
4) Mid-Pac

Kauai:

Poipu Bay, Grove Farms, Kauai Lagoon and, lastly, The Prince. As JohnV said, too many lay-ups off the tee.

Big Island:

Mauna Kea has the long-standing rep because it was (allegedly) the first "really good" course in Hawai'i that was part of the first real luxury resort that had been built in the state since the 1920's. Although Oahu CC has always been good, it's private and it is true that the 2 best holes at MK are really, really good (#3 plus some par 3 on the back - #11? I think).

Other than that, the course and, to a lesser degree, the hotel have definitely been surpassed by at least 6 courses on the Big Island alone - all of which have been mentioned here, already.

Lanai:

Challenge at Manele is definitely worth a boat trip over from Maui for the day. Fabulous vistas, 4 or 5 spectacular holes - kind of like Pebble Beach in Hawai'i. The Greg Norman course at Koehle (spell?) Lodge (up the mountain) is only worth it if you're staying there.

« **Reply #30 on:** December 26, 2003, 01:45:25 PM »

chipoat:

Thanks for the details / info.

I'm likely going to have 2-3 days in Oahu but only one complete day for golf. I'll have more time on the Big Island and hope to play a few of the ones already mentioned.

Like I asked before of Joel -- I wonder how much further along Hawaii is architecturally speaking than say a wasteland generaly like Florida? Minus the rolling terrain I just have to wonder if Hawaii has noticeably moved away from the
r-e-s-o-r-t-i-s-h golf that domintes the landscape? I gather from some of the posts made that there seems to be a concerted effort on some islands to do just that.

I wonder if other newer courses will follow that trend or simply be assembly line versions of what's there already?

« **Reply #31 on:** December 26, 2003, 02:59:09 PM »

Interesting observations, Matt!!!

Thinking a bit about it now (in the light posed by your above question) I wonder the same thing. I've loved the golf I played in Hawaii...but I think it has been more out of "atmosphere and surroundings" than the actual architectural merits and/or strategic options presented.

Don't get me wrong...places like Kapalua and such offer PLENTY of the things this group here looks for...but on thw whole I think the courses may be somewhat lacking when it comes to the "fundamental aspects" of what many here consider to be good go0lf course design.

I do enjoy the various levels of elevation change, the greens are generally tough to read due to the mountains and oceans "pulling" on the golf ball...but I wond how well received these places wopuld be in picked up from the islands and plunked down somehere else in the lower 48? I know similar arguements have been made about Pebble Beach and the like, and I think the comparisons are quite similar. The setting, views, proximity to the ocean, etc. all lend to the "atmosphere" created at most Hawaiian courses which truly give then their character.

Just my $.02.........

« **Reply #32 on:** December 26, 2003, 10:07:40 PM »

You can do 36 in one day on Oahu in February if you start early. OCC is 25 minutes from both Kaneohe and Royal Kunia but in opposite directions (with OCC in the middle).

Let me know if you want some thoughts on hotels and retaurants. Alan Wong's is as good a restaurant as any city in the world has to offer.

« **Reply #33 on:** December 27, 2003, 01:59:33 PM »

I've lived in Hawaii since '65 and have played just about every course in the state.
Oahu:
Makaha West is the best. A mature Billy Bell course, it winds its way up an incredibly beautiful valley. Although some changes have been made in the original design, it remains the best pure test on the island.
Others? Mid-Pacific CC and Oahu CC
Maui:
Both McKenna courses (North and South) and Wailea Blue (haven't played Maui Dunes and haven't been to Kapalua in too many years).
Big Island:
Nothing beats Mauna Kea. Nothing. I also like Hapuna but I've heard they are now building homes along the course. Before it was a very pure, windswept experience - narrow fairways, blind shots and fun, fun, fun til her daddy took her T-Bird away. Good luck.

« **Reply #34 on:** December 27, 2003, 03:21:36 PM »

Quote from: Phil on December 27, 2003, 01:59:33 PM

I've lived in Hawaii since '65 and have played just about every course in the state.

Big Island:
Nothing beats Mauna Kea. Nothing.

Phil:
You need to get out of the 1965 time lock. I guess Mauna Kea is OK if you like flat greens that are stimped at 4, a billy goat back nine with cart paths and expensive homes everywhere, one hole (the 3rd) that is very pretty and makes for great photos but virtually unplayable for everyone. Add in some unpleasant Hawaiians in the pro shop that make minumum wage and have attitude and one of the most expensive green fees on Hawaii. I see virtually no other qualities in Mauna Kea, perhaps you could enlighten me?

As for the other courses on the Big Island, what are your thoughts on Nanea and Hokulia.

I'm also interested on how you rate Royal Kunia vs. Makaha West on Oahu?

« **Reply #35 on:** December 28, 2003, 06:30:43 PM »

Joel,

What's wrong with 1965? After all, in a mere 40 years GCA-ers will revere anything remotely connected with this era.

« **Reply #36 on:** December 28, 2003, 07:46:15 PM »

Matt -

I just came across this ARTICLE on golf digest. Haven't read it, but thought i'd offer it in any event.

« **Reply #37 on:** December 29, 2003, 01:04:44 PM »

SPDB:

Many thanks -- I had the article forwarded to me a few days ago.

« **Reply #38 on:** December 29, 2003, 01:07:46 PM »

Quote from: Forrest Richardson on December 28, 2003, 06:30:43 PM

Joel,

What's wrong with 1965? After all, in a mere 40 years GCA-ers will revere anything remotely connected with this era.

Forrest, I highly doubt that. In fact, I'll stake my inheritance on it!

« **Reply #39 on:** December 29, 2003, 01:09:19 PM »

Matt,
The quality of courses is generally improving from an architectural standpoint. However, the resort/CCFAD price structure makes most of the courses seem like a rip off. I've driven by courses on the Big Island that looked intriguing, but then I go into the pro shop and see the green fee is north of $150, when it is probably worth paying $50 to play. The locals don't complain because at many courses they get a resident rate which is substantially cheaper. I have a friend who maintains a Hawaii drivers license just for that reason. The selection of good courses in Hawaii with reasonable green fees is quite limited. Thus every trip to Hawaii entails sitting through a condo presentation for the complimentary rounds of golf.

I'll be on the Big Island in April so I look forward to your feedback of what you play there. Have a great trip!

« **Reply #40 on:** January 25, 2004, 06:35:54 PM »

... Kahuku GC on Oahu...

I'm feelin' smarterer now that I can put perty pichers up here.

« **Reply #41 on:** January 25, 2004, 09:18:31 PM »

Matt. I know you said only Hawaii (Big Island), Maui and Oahu, but as other have suggested I recommend you take the small fairy from from Lahaina in Maui over to Lanai and play the courses over there. You really should play The Challenge at Manele Bay - Gates got married on the course!

The Plantation course is a must because of the PGA event held there. It's also an experience to play golf over such an elevation change. Forget about the Kaanapali courses - flat florida golf.

I also think you should play Mauna Kea on the big island. I enjoy it and it is the one that started it all over there.

« **Reply #42 on:** January 26, 2004, 10:43:23 AM »

Many thanks to all those who have made suggestions. I have an interesting mixture of golf courses scheduled for the three islands I will visit -- Oahu, Big Island and Maui.

During my visit I'll provide updated commentary on the ones I do in fact play.

I have to watch myself because my wife and other couple I;m with are not into G-O-L-F like yours truly.

« **Reply #43 on:** January 26, 2004, 01:21:44 PM »

I've played most of the courses on Maui, so I can speak a bit intelligently about this subject. The Plantation course is probably the funnest golf course I have ever played! Not only is the scenery and terrain over which the course is built absoutely spectacular; but the course itself is a total blast to play! I can't think of another course that was built to fit the local environment (ie wind) better. It may not be an exacting test of golf when you're setting up to drive on those downhill/cross wind holes with the 80-yard wide fairways; but who the hell cares! Talk about "grip it and rip it". Even I can drive the ball 350-yards on some of those holes!

I know it's pretty expensive, but I truly think it's worth it! It's almost worth it just for the cart drive from the 5th green to the 6th tee!

« **Reply #44 on:** January 26, 2004, 03:27:49 PM »

Surprized no one has mentioned Turtle Bay on NE shore of Oahu??

Matt, make sure you do the polynesian Cultural Center and go al the way on the President's or what-ever they call it now tickets.. Nothing like having the Maori warrior in your face!

« **Reply #45 on:** January 26, 2004, 04:26:56 PM »

The most interesting aspect to me will be to see if Hawaiian golf a bit more architecturally sophisticated or is it simply a cut and paste of all the stuff I thoroughly enjoy in Florida.

The reaction I have received from a few folks is that much of Hawaiian golf is nothing more than wonderful vistas but low level design stuff. I'm playing a few of the newer courses and it will be fun to see how the two -- those that came earlier and those most recent -- compare.

« **Reply #46 on:** January 26, 2004, 07:56:51 PM »

Matt, I very much look forward to your thoughts on Hawaii golf. I loved it because i was on my honeymoon, relaxed, and enjoyed the spectacualr views. Any time i started to ask my self if these were truly great courses or just fun eye candy, i put the thoughts out of my mind and just enjoyed it. Please keep us updated.

« **Reply #47 on:** January 31, 2004, 04:12:21 PM »

Had the pleasure in playing the Robin Nelson designed called Royal Kunia Golf Club the other day.

The course is located on very interesting rolling property and provides some wonderful views of the greater Honolulu area.

How good is the course? Well, the 7,007 yard layout (CR of 73.5 and Slope of 132) is certainly beyond the likes of the repetitive "resort" type courses one generally finds in Florida.

The putting surfaces were not as good as they need (conditioning wise) but the style and variety of the holes is certainly beyond the likes of just pedestrian type golf.

Located about 45 minutes from Waikiki the course does require the player to move the ball both ways off the tee and there's enough elasticity to test the better player while permitting the higher handicap player to keep moving.

Royal Kunia is not to be confused with a masterpiece of design like Black Mesa in NM but it has enough elements and shotmaking qualities worthy of visit when one comes to Oahu IMHO. On the Doak scale I would give it a minimum of 4.

Onward to the Big Island ...

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