[Patrick_Mucci]

Glancing out my window, through the ice laden trees to my snow covered lawn, I began to think about golf and golf course architecture.

At about the same time, I looked up and spotted a book on my bookshelf.  "The Making of the Masters".

I then began thinking about the 13th hole at ANGC, and what a great finishing hole it would make.  As I expanded my thoughts, it seemed to me, that if # 13 was # 18, then the current holes of # 9, # 10, # 11, # 12 would be a spectacular string of finishing holes.

In addition, # 14 wouldn't be a bad starting hole.

Was it the elevation, and the elevation alone that influenced the decision to locate the clubhouse, starting and finishing holes ?   Was it a desire to have # 9 and # 18 finish at the clubhouse ?  (Cypress Point doesn't).

While the golf course would be the same, would the golf course play, and finish better if # 13 was # 18 ?

Where would you locate the clubhouse if the course existed exactly as it does today ?  

[THuckaby2]

Ah but shivas, do as Patrick says and Corey hangs his head on the current #12... oh man, think about that shot coming with two to play...

I do think the negative of splitting 13 and 15 trumps this - well said.  But having 12 as the second to last hole is just very intriguing... and 13 as a finisher... whoa....

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Knowing how long and hard Mr. Jones searched for such a property, are you saying he got it wrong?

[Brian_Gracely]

Having 12-13 as finishers would be dramatic, but it would kill alot of the drama that currently exists on the back 9.  Having the current 6-13 become the back 9 really only offers 2 chances for birdie.  

17 is a prime candidate for "Dig it or Dig it up?".  I have to agrre with Dan Jenkins...dig it up.  It's a pimple on an otherwise outstanding back 9.  

So I'd leave the clubhouse where it is.  Just the view alone merit it's location, not to mention that they'd probably have flooding problems down near 13 green.

[Bob_Huntley]

But where would Magnolia Lane go?

[Lou_Duran]

Mr. Mucci,

Great question.  If you would arrange a week at the club for me, I could then study the matter and render an educated opinion.  My schedule is wide open.

[bakerg]

If memory serves me I believe the clubhouse was there originally as the nursery owner's residence.  They made due with it since times were tough financially.  But I could be wrong.

[SL_Solow]

Baker, you are correct. I think Pat's question is a hypothetical assuming one could start over and that there would be room for all the infrastructure associated with the course and tournament.

[TEPaul]

If only routing and designing golf holes were a matter of musical chairs! Very unfortunately it just isn't though.

[SL_Solow]

Shivas, As soon as the last conf call is over.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I would leave it on the top of the property just as it is. 13 is at the bottom.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas, Tom, et. al.,

You're underestimating the value of the challenge presented by the reconfigured finishing holes.

# 9
# 10
# 11

are incredibly strong holes as finishing holes, with the spectre of the swirling winds overhanging # 12, and the risk/rewards at # 13 as # 18 magnified tremendously.

Have you no vision, no imagination ?
TEPaul, you don't need to answer that, I know the answer

[peter_p]

How does this routing work, except for both sides opening with par 3s? Though I don't think the view from the clubhouse wold be something to write home about.

Front Nine: 16, 17, 8, 9, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Back Nine: 6, 7, 18, 10, 15, 14, 11, 12, 13.

I tried to start a nine hole loop starting with 14, but couldn;t come up with a satisfactory flow.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat- Rather formulaic as a justification, don't you think?

Difficulty and greatness are mutually exclusive unless I missed something somewhere.

[Brian_Gracely]

Is no tradition sacred in golf anymore??

Sure, 9-13 would be a stern test, but it's not very exciting.  The great thing about the current routing is that you can have multiple shot swings going on at the same time because of 11-13 and 15-17.  The back 9 during Masters week is like an extended match-play event for the 5-6 guys in contention.

You can have your routing for 51 weeks a year, but give me the current routing when the grass is green, the sand is white, and the creek is dyed blue.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian Gracely,

# 17 and # 18 are hardly exciting finishing holes, although
#18 can be very demanding.  If you've ever seen 9 through 13 in person,  I think you'd understand the additional excitement that would be created by that sequence of finishing holes.

A Clayman,

No, it's not formulaic at all.

Perhaps your lack of familiarity with the holes is impeding your ability to grasp the concept, as well as an understanding of the flow of the holes as they head toward amen corner for a spectacular finish.

[Brian_Gracely]

Pat,

Yes, I've seen ANGC live and I'm aware of how dramatic 11-16 can be.  And we're in agreement that 17 doesn't really fit in with the rest of the current back 9, but 18 is equally a stern test as 10 or 11, and many a Masters has been decided by a mistake or birdie (albeit rarely) on 18.  

So the question becomes, do you like the way the current back 9 weeds out the competition between 10 and 16, or do you want a shootout for the last three holes with everyone potentially making eagle on the last hole?  

[BCrosby]

Let me intrude with a couple of facts, then get into fantasy hot tub with everyone else.

There would be a couple of problems with putting the clubhouse behind 13. First, the Augusta CC crowds up against the property there. The ACC predates ANGC by about 30 years. Second, that part of the golf course is in a 50 year flood plain, so you're going to have to deal with insurance, EPA and other legal issues. Third, that location is effectively landlocked. I don't know how you get a road back there unless you run it along no. 5. Possible, but a mess.

But if we surmount all the insurmountables, I think it's an interesting idea.

- it pushes no. 8 farther back in the round, the second best par 5 on the course, imho. 8 lacks the drama of the water on 15, but 8 requires lots more imagination on the second shot and around the green.

- 18 is now a USGA par 4. Very few birdies, mostly pars and some bogies. Not a hole that lets you pick-up or lose many strokes. It's just sorta there.

- players will be more inclined to take nutty risks on 11 and 12 if they are the 16th and 17th holes. Guys are running out of course; they'll be going for broke and I can't think of two holes where it would be more fun to watch great players go for broke.

Brian -

You want to dig up 17? Seriously? A nasty drive out of a chute of trees. A short iron approach, but to one one of the most interesting green complexes anywhere. Like 8, getting up and down requires incredible levels of artistry. Two putting isn't automatic either. A tough, tough green. You got to hit it to the right spots. All four (or more) times. A very nice short par 4.

Bob

[Brian_Gracely]

Brian -

You want to dig up 17? Seriously? A nasty drive out of a chute of trees. A short iron approach, but to one one of the most interesting green complexes anywhere. Like 8, getting up and down requires incredible levels of artistry. Two putting isn't automatic either. A tough, tough green. You got to hit it to the right spots. All four (or more) times. A very nice short par 4.

Bob

Since we're turning ANGC into a jigsaw-puzzle, how about making #3 into #17 and giving players all sorts of options on the penultimate hole?  We saw what happened last year with Tiger and Maggert.  

I don't dislike #17, and I agree that the green complex is very good, but I just think it's more of a "hold on tight to my lead" hole than an exciting hole like the rest of the back 9.  Other than Jack in 1986, how many huge birdies were made on 17 in the last round vs. the number of "so close" on the edges?  

[john_stiles]

Glancing down at an old 1930s aerial and remembering past tournament round visits,   I would agree with Brian regarding the hypothethical question.

The flow of the round through Amen corner and challengers playing 15,16 ahead of the leaders playing 11,12,13 is interesting.    Leaders then have their chance to decide what to do on 13 and 15.   Pretty good.

You would gain 12 and 13 as the Amen Finish which would be exciting ...... but lose the combination punch of 12-13 and then 15-16.  Combination punch also brings up the intrigue of falling and then getting back up.

Old aerial is nice and shows the magnolia lane and the nursery buildings.   From the practical side,  a finish near 13 would have required additional clearing as well as building a new clubhouse in a low area if the last hole was near a clubhouse.

[A_Clay_Man]

A limited understanding doesn't stop me.  

I meant more about the concept of having every golf course climax at conclusion. As I perceive your hypothosis that seems to be your major motivation.

How would the cabin look like built on stilts?

[gookin]

The majic of 18 is all day long you are asked to draw the ball. Then on your last and most important tee ball of the day you have to hit a cut. How better to test your nerves and ability. 13 is great where it is because it helps to set up the finish.  Anyway they need to cut down the new trees and rough. I think it has wrecked the place.

[JNC Lyon]

15 and 16 would be worthless in the beginning of the round, especially because so much can change in that stretch.

A lot always happens after 13, and 15 is more exciting because of the shallower green IMO.

Finally, there is little room for the all-important gallery around 12 and 13. The current 18th yields more patrons and better viewing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

I think you jumped to the wrong conclusion.

# 18 offers few options, and few dramatic pitfalls
drive the ball to a selected drive zone,
hit the green with your second shot.

# 13 has many options,
starting with your decision on the tee,
the ever present creek,
the steeply canted fairway,
the well protected green,
the decision from the fairway.
the putting difficulty that green presents.
The recovery difficulty that green presents.
The added pressure of that being the final hole ?

And, everybody seems to make the mistake of viewing this hypothetical in the narrow confines of "The Masters".

Think globally, as in members and guests.

[JakaB]

Pat,

I have missed your participation as always...but must say in this case I am dissapointed and surprised that you can fit so snuggly into the architectural box of thinking the final holes should be the most exiciting or difficult holes...I expect a deeper level of insight from you than what appears to be such standard fare.

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