[SPDB]

And don't lump PVGC and Merion into the same bucket as far as their desires.  PVGC is not trying to pursuade the USGA to give them another US Open.  

Very true, although I would love to see another Open at PV.  

[Tom_Ross]

ANOTHER Open at PVGC?  When was the previous Open?

[Matt_Ward]

Tom Ross:

Help me to understand your definition of "relevance of design" and "standing." The relevance is what matters to the people entrusted with the final outcomes at their respective facility. Clearly, the "standing" issue is part of that dynamic -- no matter what others may say there are egos involved and I'm sure that as human beings they take their "standing" with justfiable pride.

When any courses opt to make changes they are reacting to something that is happening. That is just a simple truth. My question was a simple one -- why the need to "tweak" a Mona Lisa painting -- it's already a certifiable masterpiece!

When you have two world renown courses -- already validated a great many times over -- why all the desire to "beef up" the layouts with more and more length? What happens if the "new" length is not sufficient? Does one then get hire out flatbed trucks and place new tees beyond the others and move it to further and further removed locations?

In the case of Merion chasing a future Open is like the dog chasing it's own tail -- it's an exercise in futility and needs not to be continued. The reputation of Merion is indeed secure -- the continued lust for an Open is a quest for fool's gold IMHO.

[Mike_Cirba]

As much as I'd love to see another US Open return to Merion, the USGA needs to be fair to the club and tell them, finally and definitively, yea or nay.

 

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

On some reflection I don't really think the USGA needs to tell Merion anything at all about a future Open--whether it be yea or nay or boo. They certainly don't exactly owe that to any other course in America. What Merion needs to do is just stop thinking about another US Open and go about their business as they always did in the past and who the hell knows maybe it will happen again.

I'll tell you a funny story about Merion and the USGA and US Opens. Back in 1971 the Open was slated for Merion and in preparation for the Open the Green Committee (and BillK) were considering throwing a bunker into the corner of #14 on the tee shot and the USGA told them if they added something like that to a pure golf course like Merion they wouldn't hold the US Open there so the bunker never went in! How's that for an old switcheroo compared to today?

And on PVGC getting bounced out of their traditional #1 position by Pebble Beach, sure, I guess you could say that it wasn't exactly and completely UNimportant to them but I'm pretty sure they knew deep down that they'd be back in that #1 positon real soon after those rating ignoramouses got their heads screwed back on correctly. Matter of fact, shortly after Pebble replaced PVGC as #1 a contingent of those that run Pebble came to PV and were overheard in the parking lot after their round at PV to say;

"My God, our place isn't anywhere near this good!"

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul;

The USGA has been holding out the carrot of another US Open to Merion for over 20 years now.  

You and I both know that the club would love nothing more than to hold another national professional title there.  The club is proud and aware of their heritage, and rightfully so.  To be told that their course is no longer worthy just doesn't sit right on multiple levels, and I can instinctively understand them trying to make changes that they think might incur the USGA's favor.

As far as giving the club a definitive yea or nay decision, that very thing has been promised to the club now on multiple occasions in recent years.  The USGA sent a number of professionals, starting with Nick Price, to go and play the course and report back to them.

I believe that such a process is both unseemly as well as a whore's tease.  They KNOW that the club is interested, yet play this baiting game that if the club does this, or changes the course to do that, that the might consider them.  That's ultimately a political positioning that they use as leverage against other clubs to get what they want for their tournament.   Check out the article in Golf Digest last year that tells the story of how Olympia Fields was selected over Merion for the 2003 US Open for an example of the type of maneuverings that are happening behind the scenes.  

The fact is, the USGA has been playing this game pitting clubs against each other for some time now, and not only with Merion.  Look at the situation with Riviera (another course that has unfortunately tried to modernize to the detriment of the course) against, of all place, Torrey Pines.

The bottom line is that the USGA is playing a cruel trick against classic courses and I have to ask where the honesty and integrity is in their process of selecting US Open venues.  If you see it, please let me know.

As far as Pine Valley, I'll only say that the topic of Pebble Beach superceding PV at #1 was the source of much discussion at the club.  As immune as they may seem from such tawdry things as course ratings, the folks I spoke to certainly seemed to care.

Hope all is well and that we get together soon;
Mike

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

I couldn't agree with you and your post above more. I don't think the USGA should dangle carrots in front of any golf club for the purpose of inducing them to do things to their course to get an Open someday. I think the USGA should totally keep their mouths shut about where they plan to go other than to create the probable 5-6 course tight rota they have and need for their probably 5-6 years of Open planning and supplemented by perhaps up to ten other courses that might be considered just outside their tight rota.

What went on at Riviera and probably Merion isn't good. People like GeoffShac are undoubtedly right, in the final analysis the USGA AND the R&A probably have something to hide or think they do and they will never exactly admit it.

If anyone really wants to honestly distill all this down to what it really is they can hardly miss the fact that the US Open is just a matter of big business now--and for that space is necessary to them--both space to put spectators and contributors on and space (golf course elasticity) to accomodate the far lengther professionals and amateurs of today.

What's at the bottom of all this? Open revenue and a fixation on "Old Man Par" is and no matter how anyone cuts it that fact is practically unavoidable now.

The USGA and the R&A don't exactly deny this--they just won't come right out and admit it. But nevertheless, that's what it is and just about all it is!

There would be nothing at all better than if the USGA would just go back to the Merions and Rivieras from time to time and set those courses up the way they were set up in 1951 or 1971 or 1991 and from the same tees and let these guys today play. And then put them from time to time on the stretched new courses of today such as Torrey Pines and let them play those.

And after we'd all gone through maybe ten years of that what could be a better barometer of the way the game, its courses and the players of it and their equipment at any time have changed? There could be no better barometer than that--no better indicator of the evolution of it all than that---no better indicator of the vast diversity and difference in the world of golf architecture at least, one of the true essences of the entire game of golf itself.

Actually that could all be a beautiful thing, a real indication and education of the rich history of all of golf and its playing fields.

Forget about the revenue for a minute--some clever planners could probably work that out. And then it'd all just boil down to the fact that too many people in power just want "Old Man Par" to remain the same--to remain static and something that never will and never should change.

Just what if the USGA and R&A finally decided to let "Old Man Par" go for these guys today and perhaps replaced it with something like just "course ratings" for the performance barometer on these diverse and different courses created through the ages?

Why would that be so awful? I have no doubt they'd say something like that would distort the record books! Then someone should ask them what's worse distorting the record books with a one time simple adjustment or continuosly distorting the golf courses all over this world for the rest of time?

[SPDB]

Mike -

I think you are right about the carrot that is being held out in front of Merion. I think they would have a valid case if they were eventually not awarded the Open on several contractual, quasi-contractual theories. It would be an interesting case to litigate. Merion v. USGA.

[ChipOat]

Sean:

You ARE just joshing, aren't you?

[Jeff Goldman]

I know getting an Open is a prestigious event for a club, but for a world-renowned club like Merion, isn't it also risky these days?  If it gets toasted, many folks, or, to paraphrase Matt Ward, some "idiot raters," will downgrade the course significantly.  Same thing for Pine Valley or even Shinnecock.  Didn't BPB get acclaim because it was hard, rather than great?  Knowledgeable folks will always understand, but they will be a small minority, and what member wants to hear Johnny Miller say on sunday, "well, it used to be great, but no more"?

Jeff Goldman

[TEPaul]

JeffG;

Another good reason for any club to tell all raters and rankers to "piss off"!

[HamiltonBHearst]

That is pretty harsh Mr. tePaul.  I would prefer the line"what member are you a guest of today?"  One of my clubs is often criticized by raters/rankers for being to easy, perhaps next time I will sneak the the home-made score cardwhich will have a par of 69 and a few more "strong par4's"

[SPDB]

Jeff -
If you've played Merion, you know that any statement like the hypo Johnny Miller, would just be impossible and untrue.

[TEPaul]

"That is pretty harsh Mr. tePaul."

Yes it is Hamilton! My mission will not be complete until all golf course raters and rankings have been been obliterated from the minds of the golfing man!    

[Willie_Dow]

Tom and Wayne -

What a great meeting we had today with Ron.  I especially liked the reference to Ross' course designs never put a par on any hole.

It sort of shows how each of us play every course as it fits our game at the time.  Maybe Faldo is getting to this way of thinking.

As Mark Rowlinson pointed out in The World Atlas of Golf - "Tommy Armour the 'Silver Scot', is one of many pros to have suffered at Merion.  He sliced his tee shot out-of-bounds on the 6th in every round of the 1934 Open, ending with 314."

My take on Ron's point is "Paul Runyan - who chipped down to a forward tee to play a fairway wood at Merion's famous 18th."

Willie

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