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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2010, 05:01:56 PM »
KBM,

That's a swimmin' hole waiting to happen w/o the drainage.  :D
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Chris Flamion

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2010, 08:45:48 PM »
I have always felt that more than anything the bunker needs to be "playable" for all handicaps.  To me that means it is raked regularly but not in perfect condition.  It is a hazard but one that you should be able to recover from.

I have played a few courses where the bunkers are always in pristine condition.  That is not for me.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2010, 05:07:46 AM »
I would like to see bunkers raked once a week or something like that.  However, contingent upon these nasty bunkers (which should be deep) is that there should be relatively few bunkers about.  I would never in a million years say course with 75 bunkers should not be raked.  That shot would get OLD very soon.  Cut the bunkering down to 30ish then we are getting somewhere.  Its a win-win.  Less bunkers and less maintenance. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Patrick_Sisk,_CGCS

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2010, 09:46:03 AM »
Kelly,

Perhaps I should have used the word "extensive" as opposed to "crazy" when describing bunker drainage.  Not knowing the surrounding topography and environmental conditions I suspect that the drainage in photo you posted would be considered fairly extensive but appropriate for the soil conditions you're working in.  That same drainage pattern in a much lighter soil would probably be considered over the top.

Here's the rub.  Most golfers (I would not include those who participate on this site in this category) are interested in playing from consistent sand surfaces and in order to produce these consistent conditions extremes (when compared to bygone eras) in construction and maintenance must be applied.  So, the question is have sand bunkers evolved from the hazards they once were into sand areas as described in an earlier reply?

As you know, bunker maintenance (or construction) is not a one size fits all proposition because of the variety of outside influences.  Truthfully I find it much more manageable to produce consistent putting surfaces (soil moisture, firmness, ball roll distance) than a uniform sand surface.


Pat

Troy Alderson

Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2010, 10:04:00 AM »
Let's all not forget how bunkers started, as natural erosion from sheep bedding down in sandy soil on the links courses of Scotland.  Bunker "hazards", IMHO, should be natural occuring hazards to the play of the hole.  Any golf course that does not have a natural sand soil profile should not have sand bunkers, but some other form of hazard for the hole.  Each golf course architect, golf course site would have to determine what will constitute a naturally occuring hazard for the site.  Which is why I like the idea of maintaining natural streams, rock outcroppings, ponds, native vegetation, etc. to compliment the golf course by laying out the routing around and/or adjacent to the holes.  Sand bunkers only exist because of the natural tendency of sheep to get out of the wind and rain on a sand soil links course.

To answer the question of maintaining bunkers.  I like the idea of very large strategically placed waste bunkers, only maintained by the maintenance staff as needed, with a mechanical bunker rake without smoothing rakes and only using the vertical tines and scarifier to maintain a vegetation free hazard, no rakes for the golfers.


Troy
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 11:07:46 AM by Troy Alderson »

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2010, 10:31:33 AM »
Rick Baril, one of the partners in von Hagge's firm did a short presentation at the World Forum in St Andrews the other week about Stensballegaard, a course they've built in Denmark, opened for preview play last year, official opening shortly. They - along with the owners - have formulated a no-raking policy for the course, and put together a policy document to explain it to golfers. A few quotes:

"The sand bunkers at Stensballegaard are an important part of the tactical challenge. The bunkers will be minimally maintained. This means: only enough grooming to limit plant growth and sustain the sandy aspect."

"The sand bunkers are designed to impose a penalty."

"In order for a hazard to effectively define strategy, there must be sufficient reason for a player to avoid the hazard."

I was impressed, and the photos Rick handed round showed they were walking the walk... will be interesting to see if it sticks.

Has the no-rake policy at Deltona in Orlando endured?
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2010, 10:48:28 AM »
The trend in bunker maintenance and construction for at least the last 15 years has been to produce surfaces that are consistent throughout the entire golf course.  Crazy drainage...

Pat Sisk

Pat,

I wanted your opinion regarding the drainage network depicted below as to whether this qualifies as "crazy drainage" for bunkers. The soil is rocky, clay, poorly drained. I thought it interesting to get your perspective since you seem to have given this subject much thought. Thanks.


Coasting is a downhill process

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2010, 11:01:11 AM »
The trend in bunker maintenance and construction for at least the last 15 years has been to produce surfaces that are consistent throughout the entire golf course.  Crazy drainage...

Pat Sisk

Pat,

I wanted your opinion regarding the drainage network depicted below as to whether this qualifies as "crazy drainage" for bunkers. The soil is rocky, clay, poorly drained. I thought it interesting to get your perspective since you seem to have given this subject much thought. Thanks.


Opps, hit the POST too soon - must be Monday,  Anyway, Kelly, I was struck by 2 aspects, one was the spine was against the left/greenside but some was alos on the right side, does this mean the bunker floor is flat or convex.  Lack of slope in the floor can be a root cause for needing more drainage. (Although here it a Peter/Paul thing as almost the same amount of pipe would be used if it were a center spine or as shown). 2) looks like they are putting in irrigation and those blue flags look to be small spray heads for the grass bunker face and the red ones for the green's irrigation.  This is a perfect example of spending more money upfront to insure better conditions for less maintenance $$$ down the line.  Pay-me-now-or-pay-me-later.   I am baffled though as to why someone would spend all this money and then not just sod the whole thing ( it looks like seed and erosion control blanket around the bunker edging). Although, maybe they will sod over that and are just using it to temporarily protect the already cut edge.
Coasting is a downhill process

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2010, 11:07:05 AM »
Adam,

I enjoyed that short presentation from Rick Baril also... Looked pretty good to me...

Keith Buntrock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2010, 04:15:04 PM »
I played in a college tournament last week at Purgatory in Indiana, and one of my fellow competitors hit it up near the lip of a bunker, in a footprint. Had the footprint not been there, the ball would have rolled down to the bottom of the bunker and he would have had a realistic chance at getting up and down. When he saw where the ball lay, after a few expletives were bellowed, he said "This is why we should play rake and place."

Rake and place?

Why even have bunkers in the first place?

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2010, 04:56:44 PM »

Common Ground GC in Denver, a Tom Doak design.

The bunkering is quite interesting.  Too narrow to get a mechanical rake into the bunkers, so hand raking.
Grass slopes and contours around the bunkers appear to be mowed. 
I know there was not a huge budget for this course, so is this the way to build bunkers for maintenance purposes in today's world?

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2010, 07:56:47 PM »
Keith: Somebody needs to give your fellow competitor a good talking to. Unfortunately, I see and here his type of attitude toward the game in far too many high school and college players, let alone golfers of your age who are strictly recreational players. Congratulations to whomever raised you in the game and kee[p up the good work!

"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Chris Flamion

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2010, 09:54:07 PM »
Keith, I hope you gave him a funny look or said something snide.  Besides last time I was at Purgatory those bunkers are so fine the extra sand would have hardly made a difference.

Now on that point, a footprint?!? it takes an extra 15 seconds to rake a bunker so it is "maintained"(big difference than consistent like the pros play). 

Keith Buntrock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2010, 10:35:02 PM »
Chris, I was pretty shocked when I heard him say something that I thought was that outrageous. I think I sorta rolled my eyes and gave him one of those looks that Lee Trevino gave to Happy Gilmore.

I bet I don't hear that kid complain about hitting a tree that prevents his ball from going OB. Course conditions just aren't going to be PGA tour quality... especially in April in the Midwest.

Kids these days... ;)

Matthew Runde

Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2010, 07:14:36 AM »
I played in a college tournament last week at Purgatory in Indiana, and one of my fellow competitors hit it up near the lip of a bunker, in a footprint. Had the footprint not been there, the ball would have rolled down to the bottom of the bunker and he would have had a realistic chance at getting up and down. When he saw where the ball lay, after a few expletives were bellowed, he said "This is why we should play rake and place."

Rake and place?

Why even have bunkers in the first place?

Keith, your friend was not seeing the forest, for the trees.  If they were to add more footprints, his lie would have been common.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2010, 10:02:35 AM »

It would be great if players who frequent a club were given instructional material that specifically related to their course such as, “our bunkers are periodically maintained by our staff, however we rely mostly on the player to rake after play from their spot in the bunker. If you encounter uneven conditions such as footprints in a bunker here is how we suggest you play that shot, or our bunkers have a sand/soil consistency that makes the ground condition a little firm, here is how we suggest you play from such a lie.” This might also allow the club the opportunity to give opinions on what constitutes a hazard as you suggested above, a hazard is not meant to provide absolute consistent conditions. With this approach then I believe you can justify using local sand even though it might not be the ideal, you can justify spending less time grooming the bunkers, and you can extend the period of time within which you might have to consider renovation.


This was part of a conversation last weekend--whether or not we could print up a maintenance handbook for the members explaining why/why not certain things are done.None of us had ever seen anything like it nor could we decide whether it would be a good idea.

Have you ever seen this done and,if so,did it get the desired result?

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2010, 10:05:17 AM »
The trend in bunker maintenance and construction for at least the last 15 years has been to produce surfaces that are consistent throughout the entire golf course.  Crazy drainage...

Pat Sisk

Pat,

I wanted your opinion regarding the drainage network depicted below as to whether this qualifies as "crazy drainage" for bunkers. The soil is rocky, clay, poorly drained. I thought it interesting to get your perspective since you seem to have given this subject much thought. Thanks.


Opps, hit the POST too soon - must be Monday,  Anyway, Kelly, I was struck by 2 aspects, one was the spine was against the left/greenside but some was alos on the right side, does this mean the bunker floor is flat or convex.  Lack of slope in the floor can be a root cause for needing more drainage. (Although here it a Peter/Paul thing as almost the same amount of pipe would be used if it were a center spine or as shown). 2) looks like they are putting in irrigation and those blue flags look to be small spray heads for the grass bunker face and the red ones for the green's irrigation.  This is a perfect example of spending more money upfront to insure better conditions for less maintenance $$$ down the line.  Pay-me-now-or-pay-me-later.   I am baffled though as to why someone would spend all this money and then not just sod the whole thing ( it looks like seed and erosion control blanket around the bunker edging). Although, maybe they will sod over that and are just using it to temporarily protect the already cut edge.

Tim,

I am baffled as to where in the picture you see seed and erosion control blankets. How did you come to the conclusion that sod was not used?

Kelly, sorry, time to change my contacts, upon closer inspection it now appears that there is a row of sod around the lip.  The dorment color thru me off (looked like Curlex) But then the guys in winter coats should have been a give away.  Is this one of your bunkers?
Coasting is a downhill process

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2010, 10:12:01 AM »
Tim,

Is this what you're looking for...man, you architects spend too much money!!



YEP.  Only, could you please move the dozer? ;D
Looks like a modified Redan, what was there before?
Coasting is a downhill process

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2010, 10:14:49 AM »

It would be great if players who frequent a club were given instructional material that specifically related to their course such as, “our bunkers are periodically maintained by our staff, however we rely mostly on the player to rake after play from their spot in the bunker. If you encounter uneven conditions such as footprints in a bunker here is how we suggest you play that shot, or our bunkers have a sand/soil consistency that makes the ground condition a little firm, here is how we suggest you play from such a lie.” This might also allow the club the opportunity to give opinions on what constitutes a hazard as you suggested above, a hazard is not meant to provide absolute consistent conditions. With this approach then I believe you can justify using local sand even though it might not be the ideal, you can justify spending less time grooming the bunkers, and you can extend the period of time within which you might have to consider renovation.


This was part of a conversation last weekend--whether or not we could print up a maintenance handbook for the members explaining why/why not certain things are done.None of us had ever seen anything like it nor could we decide whether it would be a good idea.

Have you ever seen this done and,if so,did it get the desired result?

Never seen it and I have never understood why it is not done. Most courses have perculiar conditions that could be addressed by teaching golfers how to think about playing that course. As I told my son the other day on the course, this isn't football or school, you need to use your brain out here! Something as little as O.B. running down the left side of the hole, tee it up on the left side of the tee and play away from trouble. Now some may not agree with that strategy, but I think it is pretty sound advice for most players. There is a section in Tommy Armour's instruction book that deals with course management as a player. This approach could be made course specific by the pro and superintendent.

I don't understand why it's not done either.My sense is that this would have been a great idea 30 years ago but that,nowadays,most members wouldn't take the time to read it.

That said,I'm actually dumb enough to try.We shall see.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers: How should they be maintained
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2010, 10:46:34 AM »
KBM,it takes a brave man to publicly admit being an Aggie.


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