News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« on: December 27, 2003, 08:22:23 PM »
Hope Valley C.C. in Durham, NC is a 1926 Donald Ross design that reopened in Oct. after a renovation by Brian Silva.  The course is of some historic significance as the scene of the fourth of Byron Nelson's 11 straight victories in 1945.  The course had been changed several times over the years, most recently in the mid-80's.  The club turned the course over to Silva last January.  I should note that the club is in possession of Ross's original drawings, but they consist only of a page or so.

Silva was quoted in "Triangle Golf Today" as saying, "Hope Valley is Ross at the peak of his power.  The routing is perfect-it was the one thing that wasn't tampered with.  You don't see an uncomfortable hole out there, not a hole out of place..."

"At Hope Valley, our job wasn't to create an exact replica of the course as it was in 1926.  You can't do that.  Our job was to give the members a course that's true to the spirit of Ross's design, but at the same time can stand up to the capabilities of the modern player.  It's a restoration, not a reproduction."

"What happened to Hope Valley happened to a lot of other great old courses all over the country," Silva said.  "Over the years, many individual changes are made-some large, some small, but most of which should never have been done.  One change in itself isn't a big deal, but they add up over time.  And one day you wake up and you're on a course that's completely different from what the designer had in mind."

I had the good fortune to play the course yesterday on a beautiful day, and Silva's work is excellent by any standard.  Basically, the changes fall into four areas:
     
     1. The tee boxes have been squared up, and slightly elevated for improved drainage.  Additionally, several new tees have been built to add 175 yds. to the course.

     2. Approx. 20 bunkers have been added, and most of the existing bunkers have been converted to grass-faced, and made to appear to be cut very naturally into banks, as one would guess they probably were in 1926.  Several of the bunkers are small "sight-line" bunkers, relatively close to the tees.  Several fairway bunkers that were added as "savior" bunkers over the years have been removed.

     3. Most importantly, the greens have been completely reworked.  They have been restored to roughly their original sizes, after being reduced by about 25% in 1986 for financial reasons, and many very harsh contours that severely limited the available pin positions have been reduced.  In general, the greens are now sloped rather than tiered.  By returning the greens to the original size and contour, a multitude of chipping areas were also created.

    4. Over 300 trees were removed from the course, primarily for better turf growth, rather than lines of play.

The changes seem to have been well-received by the club's membership, and were helped by some very good weather for growing in the bent grass greens in Oct. and Nov.  There is only one hole on the course (#3, which was probably the weakest hole on the golf course) that Silva materially changed from the 1985 configuration.  Other than that hole, a player not habitually geeked-up on GCA would only really be aware of the changes in the green contours.  Visually, the course is vastly improved, and the playability (for lack of a better word) is improved as well through the better drainage and chipping areas.

One final note:  Apparently, Nelson at some point had listed the 11th hole as one of his favorite composite 18.  A creek running down the right side of the hole was subsequently covered up by two Greens Committee members who were chronic slicers. Ben Hogan, during an exhibition match with Mike Souchak in 1966, realized this and was extremely critical of the changes, saying "You tell'em I said they screwed up a great golf hole."  I have it on good authority that the possibility of "unpiping" the creek was explored during this restoration, but was deemed to be impractical in light of housing growth in the area and possible flooding problems.  Too bad, of course, but evidence that everyone at the club was and is trying hard to get it right.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

T_MacWood

Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2003, 12:36:46 AM »
Didn't Maxwell redesign the greens at Hope Valley in the 30's? I'd study those greens before creating an exact replica of 1926.

TEPaul

Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2003, 06:30:19 AM »
Interesting about Silva's Hope Valley restoration. In the "Ross" restoration context it sounds a bit like what Silva did at Gulf Stream in Florida which was to basically restore features of Ross that were removed over the decades but to also somewhat improve the course (in the spirit of Ross?).

Until Silva restored Gulf Stream I'd never realized how much the course had been tampered with through the decades by bunker removal and such. Basically at Gulf Stream Silva restored those Ross features (bunkers) and also added some of his own that I certainly would say make the course play better than it ever did.

Is Hope Valley somewhat the same kind of restoration that Silva did at Gulf Stream? It sounds like it.

And I agree with Tom MacWood--if some of Hope Valley's greens were redesigned at some point by Perry Maxwell that too should have been considered for restoration along with Ross. But I see nothing in Cornish & Whitten that Maxwell worked on Hope Valley's greens. If Tom MacWood can prove that Maxwell did work on Hope Valley's greens and which ones, though, he should do that and present that evidence to the club.

A combination of Ross and Maxwell restoration is what we just did at GMGC and it's worked out very well. Even if Tom MacWood can't really prove Maxwell worked there, to be honest, it's very easy to tell Maxwell vs Ross greens, although probably not so easy as it is at GMGC simply because Ross greens of 1916 (GMGC) don't look much at all like Ross greens of 1926 (Hope Valley). In those ten years Ross's green style generally changed a good deal---basically the shapes are very different, in my opinion.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2003, 09:46:10 AM »
I believe that Hope Valley was, in fact, worked on by Maxwell in the 1930's.  What of that work the club has drawings or knowledge of, I don't know.  There may have been other versions as well, prior to the Dan Maples work done in '85 or '86, which was the bulk of what Silva "corrected."  (It is important to note, I think, that the Maples work was apparently done as directed by the existing Greens Committee at that time, and was not Maples' "vision" for the course.)

In general, what would be the differences in Ross greens of 1916 vs. 1926, and what would be the differences between Ross greens of 1926 and Maxwell greens of the 1930's?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2003, 10:53:31 AM »
Tom Macwood may be right, the ASGCA's biography of Perry Maxwell in fact shows that he reconstructed some of Hope Valley's greens. I was surprised! Then again, this info. may not be correct particularly since the ASGCA listed that Maxwell designed Old Town in the 1920's a decade before we actually opened. Perhaps Chris Clouser could confirm whether Maxwell was ever at Hope Valley.


ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2003, 11:21:08 AM »
A.G.,
   Thanks for the feedback regarding the HV restoration. I am interested in what Silva has done over the years on Ross courses after seeing Brookside CC this year shortly before Silva came in to start working on that Ross course. Brookside has an exceptional piece of property and I hope he does as good a job bringing the course back as it sounds like he did in some of his previous Ross restoration/renovation efforts.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

larry_munger

Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2003, 04:36:16 PM »
Where was THIS Brian Silva when he did work at Greenwich Country Club in the early 90's?

TEPaul

Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2003, 06:23:46 PM »
"In general, what would be the differences in Ross greens of 1916 vs. 1926,"

Many to most Ross greens in the teens, or pre-WW1 were basically square. Into the 1920s and on they were much more free form in shape. With Philadelphia Ross courses as an example if you compare LuLu or GMGC Ross greens to Aronimink you can't miss the differences.  

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2003, 08:00:09 PM »
TEPaul,
That helps.  Now, what would be the difference between a Ross green from circa 1926 (i.e., more free form, and, I'd guess, larger) and a Maxwell green from around 10 yrs. later?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Chris_Clouser

Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2003, 07:37:00 AM »
Maxwell did indeed work at Hope Valley in the late 1930s.  I believe from what I've gathered it was during the period when he was working on Old Town and Reynolds Park in Winston-Salem.  He was also contracted to design a new course for Duke University at the time, but that never got off the ground due to WWII.  

The work at Hope Valley was a massive green redesign, along the lines of what Maxwell did at Philadelphia Country Club in the early 1930s and more extensive than his work at Gulph Mills during the 1930s.  From talking with the people at Hope Valley they think he redid over half of the course, if not the whole thing.  

If I could just attach photos to my post, I think I could find some examples from Gulph Mills of the difference between Ross and Maxwell greens on that course.  Even though Ross' green designs had evolved by 1926, they still were quite different from Maxwell's work during the Depression.  Aside from Gulph Mills, the best example of Ross' greens that I can relate to are Oakland Hills.  Those greens are excellent, but the contouring in them is just totally different than anything that Maxwell did.  Maxwell's Rolls were much more like little waves of water within the green contouring and little ripples between the large waves.  He also tended to contour the edge of the green surface in an up and down method.  I think in my visit at Old Town with Dunlop he referred to this as "scalloping."  

Chances are with the decreased green size, these contours made it extremely difficult to pin the greens.  That does not shock me.  The comment that was pulled from the article refers to the greens now being more sloped than tiered.  I find that interesting as the tiers are much more a signature of Ross than of Maxwell, so I wonder how much of a restoration of the greens actually took place.  Also, I wonder if the greens were restored to their original size, if the contouring was really that drastic.  Even if the greens were extended out to the original size, it is entirely possible that the greens were still deemed to be too drastic.  That seems to be a consistent theme with people today.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2003, 09:54:09 AM »
Brian Sivla's "restoration" of Augusta Country Club was one of the main factors that killed the hopes of some of us for a restoration of Athens CC. A contingent from Athens visited and returned disliking Sivla's work. If that was a "restoration", they wanted no part of it.

Frankly, if the Augusta CC restoration was the only one I had seen, I would agree with them.

Nonetheless, I look forward to seeing HV someday.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 29, 2003, 09:55:07 AM by BCrosby »

Chris_Clouser

Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2003, 02:24:31 PM »
AG,

Perhaps a good comparison between Ross and Maxwell can be shown by the course reviews on this site.  I had completely forgot about French Lick Springs.  The photos of that course should provide a good comparison against say, Prairie Dunes or the Old Town piece in the My Home Course section.  

Chris

T_MacWood

Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2003, 06:17:02 AM »
I don't believe there is a such a thing as a typical Ross green. I know a few Ross greens - Brookside, Oyster Harbors, #2 - that would've made even Maxwell blush.

Are Oakland Hills greens the work of Ross or RTJ?

Chris_Clouser

Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2003, 07:51:59 AM »
Tom,

From what I'm aware, the greens at Oakland Hills are the ones Ross designed.  RTJ, I don't believe touched the greens, but everything else was altered.  I may be wrong on that though.  It's not something I've really dived into before.  

I agree, that from what I've seen there are no typical Ross greens.  I was just saying that the use of tiers in green design was something that Ross had used more extensively then Maxwell did on his courses.  I've only seen one style of tiered green by Maxwell on any of his courses, but he did use it on several of them.  And yes, some of those greens at French Lick are beyond something even Maxwell would have done.  

It's a good thing that the people at French Lick are proud of their Ross heritage.  If that course were done by Bill Diddel, then they probably would have ripped those greens out long ago because they would have been labeled "unfair." :)


TEPaul

Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2003, 08:51:32 AM »
Chris:

I have a question for you about Perry Maxwell. According to Cornish & Whitten's bio on Maxwell it reports that after Maxwell's wife died in 1919 he retired from banking and spent the next several years touring southern and eastern golf courses.

The question is do you have much idea where he went and what he saw specifically? The reason I ask is if you could see the 10th green at Charles River G.C. (Ross 1921) in Boston you'd just swear Maxwell had to have built it (and it is apparently untouched btw).

But no, Ross did it and the reason I mention it is there are some completely typical Maxwell "poofs" in that green that I thought had to be Maxwell because I've never seen anything like that from Ross! But they say they definitely are Ross. I'm just wondering if Maxwell may not have picked up on something like that which he became so famous for from Ross.

Do you have anything about Maxwell's whereabouts that would put him in Boston or at Charles River during his so-called "tour" to study architecture which Cornish and Whitten referred to?

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2003, 09:09:32 AM »
Ross greens varied from course to course and from time frame to time frame as some have pointed out above.  The key is unless the green has been totally rebuilt, you can usually figure out the size and shape from the fill pad.  The one thing about Ross that confuses me is why many people think he only did flat bottom grass faced bunkers?  

BCowan

Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2015, 11:12:58 PM »
Maxwell did indeed work at Hope Valley in the late 1930s.  I believe from what I've gathered it was during the period when he was working on Old Town and Reynolds Park in Winston-Salem.  He was also contracted to design a new course for Duke University at the time, but that never got off the ground due to WWII. 

The work at Hope Valley was a massive green redesign, along the lines of what Maxwell did at Philadelphia Country Club in the early 1930s and more extensive than his work at Gulph Mills during the 1930s.  From talking with the people at Hope Valley they think he redid over half of the course, if not the whole thing. 

If I could just attach photos to my post, I think I could find some examples from Gulph Mills of the difference between Ross and Maxwell greens on that course.  Even though Ross' green designs had evolved by 1926, they still were quite different from Maxwell's work during the Depression.  Aside from Gulph Mills, the best example of Ross' greens that I can relate to are Oakland Hills.  Those greens are excellent, but the contouring in them is just totally different than anything that Maxwell did.  Maxwell's Rolls were much more like little waves of water within the green contouring and little ripples between the large waves.  He also tended to contour the edge of the green surface in an up and down method.  I think in my visit at Old Town with Dunlop he referred to this as "scalloping." 

Chances are with the decreased green size, these contours made it extremely difficult to pin the greens.  That does not shock me.  The comment that was pulled from the article refers to the greens now being more sloped than tiered.  I find that interesting as the tiers are much more a signature of Ross than of Maxwell, so I wonder how much of a restoration of the greens actually took place.  Also, I wonder if the greens were restored to their original size, if the contouring was really that drastic.  Even if the greens were extended out to the original size, it is entirely possible that the greens were still deemed to be too drastic.  That seems to be a consistent theme with people today.

''Maxwell did indeed work at Hope Valley in the late 1930s.  I believe from what I've gathered it was during the period when he was working on Old Town and Reynolds Park in Winston-Salem.  He was also contracted to design a new course for Duke University at the time, but that never got off the ground due to WWII.'' 

Wow.  Duke has such great land and is a big miss to me.  It would of been cool to have played a Maxwell designed Duke course. 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 11:19:22 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross Restoration by Silva in NC
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2015, 05:55:56 AM »
Maxwell did indeed work at Hope Valley in the late 1930s.  I believe from what I've gathered it was during the period when he was working on Old Town and Reynolds Park in Winston-Salem.  He was also contracted to design a new course for Duke University at the time, but that never got off the ground due to WWII. 

The work at Hope Valley was a massive green redesign, along the lines of what Maxwell did at Philadelphia Country Club in the early 1930s and more extensive than his work at Gulph Mills during the 1930s.  From talking with the people at Hope Valley they think he redid over half of the course, if not the whole thing. 

If I could just attach photos to my post, I think I could find some examples from Gulph Mills of the difference between Ross and Maxwell greens on that course.  Even though Ross' green designs had evolved by 1926, they still were quite different from Maxwell's work during the Depression.  Aside from Gulph Mills, the best example of Ross' greens that I can relate to are Oakland Hills.  Those greens are excellent, but the contouring in them is just totally different than anything that Maxwell did.  Maxwell's Rolls were much more like little waves of water within the green contouring and little ripples between the large waves.  He also tended to contour the edge of the green surface in an up and down method.  I think in my visit at Old Town with Dunlop he referred to this as "scalloping." 

Chances are with the decreased green size, these contours made it extremely difficult to pin the greens.  That does not shock me.  The comment that was pulled from the article refers to the greens now being more sloped than tiered.  I find that interesting as the tiers are much more a signature of Ross than of Maxwell, so I wonder how much of a restoration of the greens actually took place.  Also, I wonder if the greens were restored to their original size, if the contouring was really that drastic.  Even if the greens were extended out to the original size, it is entirely possible that the greens were still deemed to be too drastic.  That seems to be a consistent theme with people today.

''Maxwell did indeed work at Hope Valley in the late 1930s.  I believe from what I've gathered it was during the period when he was working on Old Town and Reynolds Park in Winston-Salem.  He was also contracted to design a new course for Duke University at the time, but that never got off the ground due to WWII.'' 

Wow.  Duke has such great land and is a big miss to me.  It would of been cool to have played a Maxwell designed Duke course.


Ben-Agreed on the Duke course as it falls far short in my mind. Certainly Maxwell would have delivered something far superior to what is there.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back