Did Donald Ross ever say "no"?

[Rick Shefchik]

Midland Hills in Roseville, MN (an immediate suburb of St. Paul) contacted Ross several times in 1919, asking him to design their course. He kept quoting a price he knew they could not meet, which the members interpetted as Ross saying "no." They eventually turned to Seth Raynor, who was then designing the Somerset Country Club course in Mendota Heights, just south of St. Paul. Not a bad consolation prize.

[Tom_Doak]

Midland Hills in Roseville, MN (an immediate suburb of St. Paul) contacted Ross several times in 1919, asking him to design their course. He kept quoting a price he knew they could not meet, which the members interpetted as Ross saying "no." They eventually turned to Seth Raynor, who was then designing the Somerset Country Club course in Mendota Heights, just south of St. Paul. Not a bad consolation prize.

Rick:


How much was Ross asking?  And how much did Raynor charge, if you know?


Raynor hadn't done that much solo work by 1919, so I would assume his price was substantially lower.

[Sven Nilsen]

Midland Hills in Roseville, MN (an immediate suburb of St. Paul) contacted Ross several times in 1919, asking him to design their course. He kept quoting a price he knew they could not meet, which the members interpetted as Ross saying "no." They eventually turned to Seth Raynor, who was then designing the Somerset Country Club course in Mendota Heights, just south of St. Paul. Not a bad consolation prize.

Rick:


How much was Ross asking?  And how much did Raynor charge, if you know?


Raynor hadn't done that much solo work by 1919, so I would assume his price was substantially lower.

I don't know how much Ross was asking, but Raynor was paid $1,500. 

[Bret Lawrence]

Herbert Fowler also quoted Midland Hills a price of $3000.  Raynor was already working at nearby Somerset Country Club.  Raynor didn’t seem to bill the club for travel expenses either, so the club decided to give him some luggage and camping gear that he was interested in.  He also took Barton with him, who helped Raynor construct Mid-Ocean and Yale in the years following.

[Bret Lawrence]

I thought I would include these letters in this thread as well.  They don’t really pertain to Ross saying “No” to a specific project, but perhaps saying “No” too many times to the Olmsted consultants.


One of the Olmsted Associates is trying to get D. Fairchild Wheeler to consider Wayne Stiles for the Bridgeport Municipal golf course project.  D. Fairchild Wheeler suggests Robert White, who they are familiar with from his turf consulatations at Brooklawn.  Wheeler also suggests Walter Hatch and Donald Ross.  Hubbard doesn’t realize that Robert White worked directly with Frederick Law Olmsted at Mountain Lake in 1916.  Hubbard’s character reference of Ross is interesting and can be found on the third page of these letters.





Olmsted Associates. Olmsted Associates Records: Job Files, -1971; Files; 694; Public golf course; Bridgeport, Conn., 1930. 1930. Manuscript/Mixed Material. https://www.loc.gov/item/mss5257100718/


Olmsted Associates. Olmsted Associates Records: Job Files, -1971; Files; 694; Public golf course; Bridgeport, Conn., 1930. 1930. Manuscript/Mixed Material. https://www.loc.gov/item/mss5257100718/.,



Olmsted Associates. Olmsted Associates Records: Job Files, -1971; Files; 694; Public golf course; Bridgeport, Conn., 1930. 1930. Manuscript/Mixed Material. https://www.loc.gov/item/mss5257100718/.

[Sven Nilsen]

Here are three quick examples of projects where Ross most likely said no.


Meadowbrook Club (Dayton, OH)


Nov. 29, 1924 Dayton Herald -





Kirtland CC (Willoughby, OH)


March 7, 1926 Cleveland Plain Dealer -





Moraine CC (Dayton, OH)


Jan. 23, 1927 Dayton Daily News -

[Tom_Doak]

On reflection the premise of the thread is slightly off.


I am approached about a lot of projects some years like now.  There are projects I say yes to, and others I say no.  There are projects where they talk to me briefly (or occasionally at length) and decide to go in a different direction.  There are projects that don’t sound anywhere close to funded and ready, so I don’t pursue them.  And sometimes I am just too swamped to go and look at a potential project if I’ve got two months of travel lined up and it is in a different direction.


I’m sure Donald Ross had the same set of outcomes.  He may have built 20 courses some years instead of my 2-3, but in years where 200 new courses were being built, he might have had 40-50 enquiries like the ones Sven just highlighted.  There’s a difference between “He did as much as he could,” and never saying no.

[MCirba]

Apparently when Donald Ross was originally approached by Washington Golf & CC (who had limited acreage) he asked them if they wanted a basic course or a prime course (paraphrasing) so it seems at least in that case he was offering tiered pricing based on level of effort.

[john_stiles]

Ross visited and laid out a 36 hole complex at Yeamans Hall in early 1923.


He evidently never responded to later mail from the Yeamans Hall group.


Correspondence in September 1923 reflects their decision to move on after Ross never replied.


YH moved on to Seth Raynor. 


In February 1923 club letter to Olmstead...... 
 " ......    "Donald Ross has told us that $30,000.00 would lay off and complete one 18 hole course to which should be added $4,000.00 for piping the first 18 hole course.  "


A June 1923 letter from WI Johnson to Mr. Marquis c/o Olmstead Brothers indicates that Ross' office was aware of Ross work and the letter said Ross would provide his recommendations in regards Olmstead' property plans.


 By September 1923, the correspondence indicates....
"  This is because Mr. Durant told me that their committee has about decided to change Mr. Raynor for the golf work. They have not been able to get any satisfactory reply from Mr. Ross and seem to think it is rather hopeless to work with him further. "


It seems by September 1923 there was no response from Ross.  Yeamans Hall moved on to Raynor.

[Tom_Doak]

John:  perhaps consider that Ross was human:


Ross’s wife Janet died of heart failure in 1922. Donald's granddaughter Elizabeth picks up the story:
[/color]"In the spring of 1923, Donald was engaged to Susie Aldridge of Rome, NY. She died on August 31, 1923 of breast cancer. “[/size]

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