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Greg Holland

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MacKenzie's View of the 18th hole?
« on: April 16, 2003, 06:29:36 AM »
What was Dr. MacKenzie's philosophy for designing a finishing hole?  CPC has been called the greatest 17 hole course in the world.  The 18th at ANGC was recently described as a not so thrilling finishing hole.  The 18th at Pasatiempo appears to be a fairly routine par 3.  Any thoughts or insight?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David_Tepper

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Re: MacKenzie's View of the 18th hole?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2003, 07:37:06 AM »
Unless I am mistaken, the original design of AGNC had the front and back nines reversed. What is now the back nine was intended to be the front nine and vice-versa. If that is true, the current 9th hole was MacKenzie's original 18th hole.
Either way, holes #9 & #18 are two of the more pedestrian golf holes on the course.
If MacKenzie did see AGNC as "the St. Andrews of America", maybe he was working off the 18th hole on the Old Course, which is one of the simpler holes on that course as well.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: MacKenzie's View of the 18th hole?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2003, 07:53:11 AM »

I have no great thoughts on Mackenzie's overall philosophy, but there are regulars here who are quite expert on the Godo Doctor so perhaps they will chime in.

I only have this to say:  if you find 18 at Pasatiempo to be a "fairly routine" par 3, I want to know what's unique and exciting for you!  That is one hell of a tough shot, 180 yards over a hazard, to a raised green that's sloped beyond what the laws of physics allow.  No way is that hole ever routine...

I do get your point though.  Pasa is just a bad example!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom_Doak

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Re: MacKenzie's View of the 18th hole?
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2003, 08:11:25 AM »
I cannot actually recall Dr. MacKenzie writing ANYTHING about the 18th hole or finishing hole in any of his articles or books.

He never said so directly, but I believe he thought more about match play than medal play.  If that's so, there is no such thing as a "finishing hole" in match play, and the 18th is often not even part of the match.

I think it is fair to say, from observation, that he didn't put extra emphasis on the 18th, or even have a definite idea what type of hole should be last.  When the ground wasn't particularly compelling I think he tended toward a longer par-4 (Alwoodley, Moortown, Augusta, Royal Melbourne), but obviously Cypress Point and Pasatiempo are examples that he wasn't bound to such a finish.

Just off the top of my head, I can't recall that he finished many courses with a par 5 -- Lahinch is the only one I can think of, and there he was just using the existing 18th hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike Hendren

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Re: MacKenzie's View of the 18th hole?
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2003, 10:20:46 AM »
David,

There was nothing pedesetrian at all about the original 9th green at ANGC.  Early photographs show a front boomerang that wrapped 180 degrees around a center bunker.  

Hope someone has and can post a photo.

Regards,

Mike

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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James Edwards

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Re: MacKenzie's View of the 18th hole?
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2003, 02:32:32 PM »
When you stand on the 18th at ANGC, I was amazed how tight it was from the back tee.  It might not be described as thrilling, but it makes you hit a 275 yard bullet straight tee shot.

I walked the course with the greenkeeper Brad Owen III and we agreed there are not many tougher tee shots on the course with a wood in your hand!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David_Tepper

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Re: MacKenzie's View of the 18th hole?
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2003, 02:48:11 PM »
Mike Hendren & J.J.S.E.

Your comments reflect the fact that there is precious little of Dr. MacKenzie's handiwork really left in the present-day AGNC.
Clearly, the original 9th green Mike refers to is long gone and the difficult & long tee-shot on 18 thru the narrow shute of trees is a fairly recent creation due to moving the teebox on 18 back within the past few years.

The reality is that using AGNC as it now exists to study the work of Dr. Mackenzie is problematic at best. The course has been altered so many times in so many ways that it takes quite a leap to see the course as an expression of his design ideas.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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James Edwards

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Re: MacKenzie's View of the 18th hole?
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2003, 03:03:28 PM »
David,

True, it's a sad reality that most courses evolve for the good or for the bad.

I can only imagine what the original course played like, but the spirit of the design, for me, is ever present.  

I don't have a problem with extending tees to make the original dog leg points come alive once again (18th) (13th) (11th), but I dont really like rebunkering etc or quirkiness in order to stop a few, like the mounding to the right of 11 and 15 stopping the ball from running.  To me the great drivers aimed at this point as it was meant to be played to gain the extra yards.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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