[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Common sense isn't so common.

If it was so easy to figure out, why have so few courses adopted it ?

I maintain, because most of the membership wants what they see on TV, and that is why I lamented NGLA's loss of the Walker Cup, as it would have provided a eye opening experience to the golfing world.

SPDB,

A green Chairman, even if he is the entire committee still has to report to the board, and can't do what the board won't sanction.

Look at Pine Valley, Seminole, NGLA, Saucon Valley, Boca Rio,
The Honors Course, Friar's Head, Atlantic City, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes and other courses that enjoy/ed the fruits of autocrats and oligarchies.

Then look at all of the courses that have been disfigured, over and over again by green committees.

I'll take a dictator any day, and take my chances.

Joe Dey was a powerful influence at The Creek, but I don't know that he was the green Chairman, or for how long.

[DPL11]

Pat,

It's been working at Huntington Valley for years. The club and the supt. are committed to firm/fast conditions at all times, except for the obvious weather related exceptions.

I think Tom is right. "Once it's put into place everyone will love it". HVCC is the prime example as well as many more following that example every year.

[Patrick_Mucci]

DPL 11,

I would say that I could probably count the number of clubs that have adopted your philosophy and not need more then my fingers and toes to total them.

You're the exception rather then the rule.

But, keep up the good work.

[TEPaul]

"If it was so easy to figure out, why have so few courses adopted it?"

Pat:

Do we really need to go over all this again? This is probably the tenth time we've been over this exact subject in the last 2-3 years. I see a ton of courses going to firm and fast ground game conditons these days. HVGC as SPDB said has been doing it for years.

Have you played Oakmont in the last few years Pat? Have you played Merion when it hasn't been raining? How about PVGC? They're all getting firm and fast when they haven't been soaked by rain. The thing about some of them is they're getting there but they can firm them up a ton more and they just get better and better and sportier and sportier.

The thing about real firm and fast is its degree is important. If you can get the ground game on these old courses to where the ball will bounce and then run maybe fifty yards or more then you really have something that's very cool.

And I don't know what you're always beating on members for with TV. If anything they should open their eyes to what they see these pros doing in the last year or so.

Haven't you noticed? Haven't they noticed that the tee shots these pros are hitting this year and last are sometimes bouncing and rolling 50-60-70 or more yards on the ground.

Sometimes some on here freak out when they hear how far Micklelson or Els or Woods hit a tee shot--maybe 376 yards or something but do you or any of those viewers actually think they're flying them that far?

No way, those tee shots are bouncing and rolling 50-60-70 and more yards! Open your eyes--the ground game is hitting the PGA Tour!!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You tell me that a ton of courses are doing this, but limit your reference to a mere four courses.

While there may be an emerging trend, the preponderance of membership golf courses still try to emulate what they see on TV, and are far removed from transitioning their golf course to firm & fast conditions.

I'm all in favor of fast & firm, but my playing experiences indicate that very few courses have adopted these conditions.

P.S.  Nowhere in golf will you see the aerial game more dominant then on the PGA Tour.

[SPDB]

Pat -
I fail to see how holding the walker cup at NGLA would open anybody's eyes to optimal maintenance practices. People generally refer to the Augusta syndrome and the detrimental effect it has had on maintenance. However, The Master's is golf's most prestigious tournament, is watched by everyone, and images of the course are beamed into people's living rooms for 58 minutes of every hour it is on the air.

The Walker Cup at NGLA would be an isolated wknd of golf, which most people would not see. Superior maintenance practices have been on display in past tournaments of more prestige and viewership with no resulting impact on how courses are maintained. What makes you think a Walker Cup at NGLA would have a different impact?

[DPL11]

Pat,

I'm not at HVCC, I was just giving an example that has been working for years.

Maybe its more regional, but in the Philly & South Jersey area, I played many courses last summer that have been firming things up. Supers are definately moving to the dry side, and club memberships are standing right behind them.

Doug

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Your read on Augusta is absolutely wrong, most clubs have, and continue to try to emulate what they see on TV at Augusta each spring.  There may be a few who think that the "Augusta Syndrome" is bad, but the vast majority think it's great.  Why, because that's what they see on TV.

With regard to NGLA, you must be kidding.

You're undermining your credibility by choosing to argue for the sake of disagreement and not on the merits of the issue.

Any TV exposure of NGLA would be fantastic for the game, its play and course conditioning.

Tell me that you understand that.  

[TEPaul]

"P.S.  Nowhere in golf will you see the aerial game more dominant then on the PGA Tour."

Pat:

That very well may be true but how can you not notice that the ground on so many of these courses the pros have been playing is firm? One just cannot fail to notice that--even on many of the approaches.

NOW, as I've been said about a zillion times if those tour stops wanted to get the pros to use the ground game run up option more on those holes that have that architectural option all those tour stops have to do is simply make the green surfaces firmer than they are now and even the pros will begin to use that option more.

This stuff isn't rocket science Pat!

[SPDB]

Pat - Once again in your haste to disagree with me, you failed to read my post.

What you describe is what I called the Augusta Syndrome. There the same thing. I know courses continue to pursue it. I was merely pointing out that those who believe in healthy, firm and fast maintenance bemoan this practice, which continues unabated.

Don't tell me I'm wrong without offering any support to your argument. Mere effrontery won't convince anybody of anything. I offered a reasonable argument. At least respond with something before questioning my credibility.

It took years before the maintenance practices at Augusta began to affect at courses across the country. How will displaying NGLA on a single weekend have any impact on maintenance practice? I don't see any sea change following the Oakmont US Am. what leads you to believe that NGLA where others have failed? What evidence apart from your undying devotion to all things NGLA can  you offer?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It may not be rocket science, but, it's not as simple as you would lead some to believe.  A club cannot merely cut back on water, they usually have to spend a good deal of money on re-configuring their greenside irrigation systems, especially the older ones with a 360 degree throw radius to insure that the approaches don't get the same amount of irrigation that the greens do.

Sometimes this means moving the heads, other times it involves creating dual heads, one for the green and the other for the surrounds.

In addition, this may be premature, as a club should first reclaim lost putting surfaces, and fringes before making a permanent alteration to their green irrigation network.

This re-configuration can cause disruption to member play unless done on during the off season.

Achieving the conditions and maintainance practices you seek can be expensive and disruptive.

I think it's worth it in the long run, but I'm not so sure that clubs are anxious to incur these costs in light of the poor financial climate golf clubs are facing today.

Many clubs are turning themselves into catering halls in order to counter rising costs.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I understand Pat's passion for the Walker Cup at NGLA, but count me as one that is against it.

Why?

For the most part, I would hate to see it chance of it becoming a pawn to outside influence. Plus, I'm being really stingy. I don't want the rest of the golf world to find out about it.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

I hear what you're saying, but I doubt that NGLA's leadership would allow it to become a pawn.

It would be good for the world of golf.

Shinnecock had a positive impact, and I would imagine that NGLA would have the same positive impact.

But, for now, it seems to be on hold.

[SPDB]

Tommy -

I think it would be an AWESOME venue. I wish it were a still a low-key event, not subject to media coverage. I imagine if it were NGLA be a more likely venue. But then again, if that were the case, then the dramatic impact it would have on course maintennce practices would not result.    

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean, I couldn't agree more, and I share Pat's passion for the course, as yours, but I worry.

I keep on forgetting that were talking Walker Cup here and not the US Am. where changes would be many with the current USGA mantra; instead of having the course play exactly how I picture it could play on a beautiful Long Island day.

Just in case--did I forget to tell anyone how much I'm in love with all things New York now? (Except the Yankees!)

[SPDB]

Tommy - I don't think the USGA has any requirements for Walker Cup matches. Only minor changes were needed at Ocean Forest, and at Quaker Ridge they redid 1 green, but I don't know that the work was a precondition to the competition. I suspect they would drop 7 to a par 4 and, perhaps, do the same to 18 to create drama (not that it needs anymore of it there).

Remember, its a match play event, so par is largely irrelevant.

Moreover, I don't have that much beef with the work done to Open rota courses under the USGA auspices, TCC, BPB, Oakmont have all turned out pretty well.

[TEPaul]

"I suspect they would drop 7 to a par 4 and, perhaps, do the same to 18 to create drama (not that it needs anymore of it there)."

Sean:

Oh, you do suspect that do you? Then why to we have people such as Pat Mucci on here who purports to love NGLA but nevertheless suggests that 35 yards should be added to hole #7 and perhaps 50-60 yards should be added to hole #18 including the rearrangement of the driveway and C.B Macdonald's gate? Instead of seeing the obvious on holes like #5 and #7 and simply dropping the pars for something like the match play Walker Cup he recommends all that. He even recommended adding yardage to hole #5 until it was pointed out to him that the topography behind the present tips makes that a horrible thing to consider.

If that's what needs to happen to NGLA for a Walker Cup I'm glad the Walker Cup wasn't awarded to NLGA! If that's what some think needs to happen to NGLA I hope the USGA never awards NGLA a Walker Cup or any other USGA event!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The 7th hole at NGLA doesn't need to be lengthened for the Walker Cup, it needs to be lengthened for everyday play in order to preserve the value and challenge of the tee shot, which is absolutely critical on a Road Hole.

Changing the par from 5 to 4 will not restore the loss of strategic value on the tee shot, which is a vital component, an integral strategic necessity to a road hole.

After spending 30 minutes surveying the hole with George Bahto and me, we thougth you understood this.  Evidently not

Tell me again, how changing par restores the lost tee shot values at # 7 and preserves the Strategy inherent in a Road Hole  ??

SPDB,

NGLA is so unique, so startling, so remote, that those seeing it on TV will be most favorably impressed.  I'm also sure that TV coverage will reference the previous Walker Cup at Shinnecock as well as the Opens at Shinnecock, with reviews of Shinnecock.

The exposure, to millions of golfers has to have a positive effect.

With respect to ANGC you're dead wrong.

The first year ANGC put copper sulfate or other chemical into the ponds to give them the "Blue" look, the next year, the copycat versions sprung up all over the nation, including my home course in New Jersey.

The one year that the mowed their fairways in a unique pattern, the next year many clubs copied the practice.

There is an automatic knee jerk reaction to almost everything golfers see on TV, and NGLA would expose them to quirk, unusual holes, marvelous conditions and a treeless look.
The impact would be immediate and stunning, and NGLA would be immediately established as a benchmark for other courses to emulate.

[SPDB]

Pat -
How would Oakmont not have the same effect? (or better put, why hasn't it)?

If you can cite similar examples of courses that have been broadcast for one weekend and have had a dramatic impact on maintenance practices, architecture, etc. I will eat my shoe.

(And you can't seriously use as an example Augusta, a course broadcast annually to the highest viewerships in golf, possessing holes which are seared into peoples memory).

Don't question my credibility.

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