News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


DFarron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2024, 10:13:22 PM »
Northwood Golf Course-Little MacKenzie features left, claustrophobic and in mediocre condition. People there are great but I don’t get the attraction.


Bethpage Black-Just really hard


San Francisco Golf Club-A very good course but if it wasn’t so hard to get on I think it wouldn’t be so popular.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2024, 07:47:34 AM »
Metedeconk National Tournament Course
Atlanta Athletic Highlands
Hamilton Farm

All three are overly penal and repetitive IMO.


None of these are rated highly by anyone.


Tom-All three are on the 2024 GolfWeek Top 200 Modern List for courses built after 1960.


I wouldn't necessary say 100-200 on the GolfWeek Modern list are highly rated. It's one beef I have with the GW rating system (and I say that as a GW rater). While I think in some ways it is an interesting thought exercise to parse classic vs. modern we're talking about golf courses at the end of the day. All you need to do is compare the 100-200 ranked classics vs. the 100-200 moderns and the different in quality becomes quite stark imo. I think the Golf Magazine top 100 is the gold standard in this regard.


Will-My point wasn’t to compare one rating source against another but rather to use GolfWeek as a reference for my selections. How long have you been on the GolfWeek panel?

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2024, 08:51:25 AM »
Metedeconk National Tournament Course
Atlanta Athletic Highlands
Hamilton Farm

All three are overly penal and repetitive IMO.

None of these are rated highly by anyone.

Tom-All three are on the 2024 GolfWeek Top 200 Modern List for courses built after 1960.

I wouldn't necessary say 100-200 on the GolfWeek Modern list are highly rated.
With nearly 40,000 golf courses world wide, a golf course that would rank in the top 400 would be in the top 1% of all courses. How then would a course that is considered in the top 1%, or even top 2%, not be considered highly rated?

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2024, 08:58:08 AM »
Metedeconk National Tournament Course
Atlanta Athletic Highlands
Hamilton Farm

All three are overly penal and repetitive IMO.

None of these are rated highly by anyone.

Tom-All three are on the 2024 GolfWeek Top 200 Modern List for courses built after 1960.

I wouldn't necessary say 100-200 on the GolfWeek Modern list are highly rated.
With nearly 40,000 golf courses world wide, a golf course that would rank in the top 400 would be in the top 1% of all courses. How then would a course that is considered in the top 1%, or even top 2%, not be considered highly rated?
+1

Chris Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2024, 09:18:51 AM »



Royal county down - too tight for average golfers with even average wind.  Didn't enjoy, just too tough.

100% agree.

Garden City - flat land and while the greens were good, didn't think tee to green it was very notable.

110% disagree!
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the golf course that attracts and retains members ?"

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2024, 09:31:24 AM »
TPC Sawgrass, Newport & Olympic Lake


I didn’t like Olympic until I had played it about 7 times, then really stated to appreciate it.


Fair point. I was a one & done. I like the land but expected more WOW. The finish was strong but I found the Ocean course just as engaging.
Integrity in the moment of choice

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2024, 09:33:21 AM »
Sand Hills


Respect a man and his right to his opinion but...
Integrity in the moment of choice

Will Thrasher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2024, 09:37:13 AM »
Metedeconk National Tournament Course
Atlanta Athletic Highlands
Hamilton Farm

All three are overly penal and repetitive IMO.


None of these are rated highly by anyone.


Tom-All three are on the 2024 GolfWeek Top 200 Modern List for courses built after 1960.


I wouldn't necessary say 100-200 on the GolfWeek Modern list are highly rated. It's one beef I have with the GW rating system (and I say that as a GW rater). While I think in some ways it is an interesting thought exercise to parse classic vs. modern we're talking about golf courses at the end of the day. All you need to do is compare the 100-200 ranked classics vs. the 100-200 moderns and the different in quality becomes quite stark imo. I think the Golf Magazine top 100 is the gold standard in this regard.


Will-My point wasn’t to compare one rating source against another but rather to use GolfWeek as a reference for my selections. How long have you been on the GolfWeek panel?


Fair point, Tim - probably more of a question of the definition of "highly rated" than anything else. If you look at those courses relative to all golf courses in the world, then percentage-wise then yes (per Ben's point). To Tom's point however, I think folks like Tom and many others on this site who have seen most if not all of the top 200, the definition may be different. I definitely enjoy having conversations around the merits of various ranking system and definitions, as it is fairly subjective at the end of the day.


I just joined the GW panel at the end of last year - if you ever find yourself in Northern Indiana don't hesitate to reach out!
Twitter: @will_thrasher_

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2024, 10:49:34 AM »
Metedeconk National Tournament Course
Atlanta Athletic Highlands
Hamilton Farm

All three are overly penal and repetitive IMO.

None of these are rated highly by anyone.

Tom-All three are on the 2024 GolfWeek Top 200 Modern List for courses built after 1960.

I wouldn't necessary say 100-200 on the GolfWeek Modern list are highly rated.
With nearly 40,000 golf courses world wide, a golf course that would rank in the top 400 would be in the top 1% of all courses. How then would a course that is considered in the top 1%, or even top 2%, not be considered highly rated?


I too agree with this.

Perhaps the thread title should be changed to "Overrated Elite Courses" if only the very best of the best are to be considered.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2024, 12:55:11 PM »
Old Barnwell - cut down every tree it seemed and lost some opportunities as a result IMHO. New course with buzz so not ranked yet.
What opportunities were lost?


Brian, with such an expansive property and land that was covered in pines I would have liked to have seen a couple holes use some of them.  Create a dogleg, maybe a lone tree in the fairway as the course has great width to pick a side. Even have a few on one side of the fairway on a par 5 like August 15?  That is what I was thinking and since the mature trees were already there, IMHO an opportunity missed.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2024, 01:29:51 PM »
Old Barnwell - cut down every tree it seemed and lost some opportunities as a result IMHO. New course with buzz so not ranked yet.
What opportunities were lost?
Brian, with such an expansive property and land that was covered in pines I would have liked to have seen a couple holes use some of them.  Create a dogleg, maybe a lone tree in the fairway as the course has great width to pick a side. Even have a few on one side of the fairway on a par 5 like August 15?  That is what I was thinking and since the mature trees were already there, IMHO an opportunity missed.
That's fair enough.  A question to which I do not know the answer is: were there mature trees that could serve such a purpose on the portions of the property that are now cleared?  On many such sites in the SE US, the land is actually not covered by large, mature trees, but rather a mix of scrub grass, bushes, and smaller pines.  Since larger trees were left in place on portions of the course, I wonder how much of the land was previously covered by large trees.  Perhaps one of Brian, Blake, Nick, or someone else with knowledge of the development could fill us in if they see this. 
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Matthew Lloyd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2024, 02:32:09 PM »
Since I just learned Firestone South is now $475 and you’re not allowed to walk, I’ll unfairly add it to this list - even though I had begun to assume it fell into the “underrated” category. But maybe I’m confusing overpriced with overrated.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2024, 03:21:34 PM »
Old Barnwell - cut down every tree it seemed and lost some opportunities as a result IMHO. New course with buzz so not ranked yet.
What opportunities were lost?


Brian, with such an expansive property and land that was covered in pines I would have liked to have seen a couple holes use some of them.  Create a dogleg, maybe a lone tree in the fairway as the course has great width to pick a side. Even have a few on one side of the fairway on a par 5 like August 15?  That is what I was thinking and since the mature trees were already there, IMHO an opportunity missed.


If you’re looking for tree-lined sand-based courses in the Carolinas, there’s plenty of, ahem, opportunities.  ;D  FWIW, I’ve seen other players in trees or been in trees myself on 6 holes.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2024, 03:27:14 PM by Ben Sims »

Nick Schreiber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2024, 03:37:17 PM »
Old Barnwell - cut down every tree it seemed and lost some opportunities as a result IMHO. New course with buzz so not ranked yet.
What opportunities were lost?
Brian, with such an expansive property and land that was covered in pines I would have liked to have seen a couple holes use some of them.  Create a dogleg, maybe a lone tree in the fairway as the course has great width to pick a side. Even have a few on one side of the fairway on a par 5 like August 15?  That is what I was thinking and since the mature trees were already there, IMHO an opportunity missed.
That's fair enough.  A question to which I do not know the answer is: were there mature trees that could serve such a purpose on the portions of the property that are now cleared?  On many such sites in the SE US, the land is actually not covered by large, mature trees, but rather a mix of scrub grass, bushes, and smaller pines.  Since larger trees were left in place on portions of the course, I wonder how much of the land was previously covered by large trees.  Perhaps one of Brian, Blake, Nick, or someone else with knowledge of the development could fill us in if they see this.




I'll chime in here, but before doing so I just want to state unequivocally that I respect Jeff's and anybody's opinion that Old Barnwell is overrated. I'm incredibly biased and love the course and our club for so many reasons, but one of the best things I think Brian and Blake did was to make bold decisions, some of which will not appeal to everyone, which is fine by me. Also, we just opened the golf course for our second season earlier this week, so to be "overrated" right out of the gate is a wonderful problem to have, and all credit should go to B&B (especially the overrated part  :) ).


As far as the tree clearing goes... the entire central valley of the property was part of the original 444-acre parcel I purchased. The trees across that entire swath of land were all baby pines, between 4-10 years old. I'm not a forestry expert by any means, but I'd say the range of height was 5ft-12ft, and even with the largest trees you could wrap two hands around the diameter of the trunk. We couldn't even sell them for pulp. In other words, it made a lot of sense for Brian and Blake to clear that swath of land to open up vistas and create the more exposed feel of the Upper Loop (1-5, 17 & 18). But at the time clearing everything wasn't a slam dunk decision, but it is one I'm grateful they made.


The 75-80 acres we purchased on the south side of the property was full of mature pines, through which Brian and Blake routed some of the finest holes on the course (all of 9,10, 13, 14, and the tees on 11 & 15). Though the fairways are wide, you are playing in and around the trees. I know this all too well, as I careened off several yesterday on the left side of 9!


To respond more specifically to Jeff's post, I will point out that a lone tree in a fairway exists on 16 (though not exactly as you describe), and some mature pines line the left side of the landing area on the par five 12th hole and to the back left of the green. This doesn't mean Jeff is wrong (or right), it is just reflective of how he experienced the course. Could Brian and Blake have used the baby pines more effectively? Perhaps. But therein lies the beauty of this entire message board! The world will never know, which means we get to debate back and forth about theoretical decisions made (or not made) at our favorite, least favorite, or most overrated courses.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2024, 03:45:46 PM »
I played Old Barnwell in April, and not once did I think, "Boy, I wish the course had more trees." I thought the routing was brilliant and the green complexes exciting. It would be a wonderful place to play every day.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2024, 04:44:20 PM »
Most overrated course to me is Spyglass.

DFarron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2024, 05:12:06 PM »
Since I just learned Firestone South is now $475 and you’re not allowed to walk, I’ll unfairly add it to this list - even though I had begun to assume it fell into the “underrated” category. But maybe I’m confusing overpriced with overrated.


That's insane and I love Firestone South

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2024, 05:21:13 PM »
Most overrated course to me is Spyglass.


I’ve noticed that amongst my civilian friends.

Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2024, 05:55:56 PM »
Nick, thanks for contributing - it is always great to hear from a principal!  I haven't been to Old Barnwell but know Brian and have been thrilled to follow the project's success.  Just looking at Google Earth I see many trees I could easily find with my erratic driver.  We are lucky to live in a time when so many fantastic new courses are being created.

Phil Burr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2024, 07:45:00 PM »
Agree 1000% with those who said Spyglass & Torrey South.  I would add just about everything in Arizona & Nevada that’s not named Talking Stick North or Desert Forest.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2024, 07:48:46 PM »
Agree 1000% with those who said Spyglass & Torrey South.  I would add just about everything in Arizona & Nevada that’s not named Talking Stick North or Desert Forest.


I love Torrey South. Was thrilled to see it play a role in the new Scott Peterson documentary.

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2024, 09:44:57 PM »
Kingsbarns, love the front nine... but somehow the back nine is in Myrtle Beach..


The Old Course at St Andrews, they say it's heaven... maybe heaven is better.  ;D


Royal Montreal Blue, since the Rees -toration it's not even the best course in Royal Montreal !!! The Red is better

Michael Morandi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2024, 10:45:25 PM »
Quaker Ridge. A mix of some very interesting holes with some that are pretty pedestrian. Much different than its neighbor Winged Foot so kudos to Tillinghast for showing a different, but less inspired, architecture.

Jeff Evagues

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2024, 11:31:45 PM »
Agree 1000% with those who said Spyglass & Torrey South.  I would add just about everything in Arizona & Nevada that’s not named Talking Stick North or Desert Forest.
I'll take Torrey South over Talking Stick North any day.
Be the ball

Doug Bolls

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overrated Courses
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2024, 12:34:50 AM »
I may be the outlier here, but I found the Firestone South Course to be a big, overated dissapointment. 


We were scheduled to play North, but when we got to check-in and inquired about South, there was a cancellation tee-time available.  We jumped at it and gladly paid the extra $$.


What I remember were many holes long and narrow.  They all went the same direction (No & So?) parallel to each other- up and back, up and back, up and back.


I do not remember one thoughtful, challenging hole.  Tree lined fairways - hit it down the middle and hit it again - freeway golf.


I have heard the pros love it.  I'm sure there are others who do also.  I'd be interested to know why.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back