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Tommy Williamsen

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So why do we love Links golf?
« on: September 14, 2024, 11:24:02 AM »
There are bad bounces. Sometimes, the ball never stops. There are gorse bushes that swallow up a ball and your score. The weather can be lousy, and the wind blows constantly. Blind shots are plentiful, and the rough is so thick in places that lost balls are inevitable.


Yet, for all that, I envy folks who play it every day.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Cal Seifert

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2024, 11:26:20 AM »
Too much of parkland golf is hit driver as far as possible, take out rangefinder, hit iron to that number and putt. Whereas links golf has more sense of adventure and variety in clubs hit, types of trajectories, and having the ball roll on the ground.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2024, 11:31:19 AM »
A friend of mine said. "In parkland golf, we say, 'Get up.' On links courses, we say, "Get down.'"
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Carl Johnson

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2024, 11:48:29 AM »
More chance, ground game, more thinking, more fun.  I don't expect to play any more links golf, but it's clearly what I prefer over the parkland-style I'm locked into in the USA.

David_Tepper

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2024, 12:03:22 PM »
"Don't take your eye off the ball till it stops rolling."

John Handley

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2024, 12:48:02 PM »
Because it's different, it's fun, and many of the links courses are in beautiful settings along a coastline.  Yes there are bad bounces, a lot of rolling of the golf ball but that is part of the charm.  Good shots are not always rewarded and sometimes bad ones are.


For me, it is mostly the links courses I have played are spectacular courses in amazing settings.
2024 Line Up: Spanish Oaks GC, Cal Club, Cherokee Plantation, Huntercombe, West Sussex, Hankley Common, Royal St. Georges, Sunningdale New & Old, CC of the Rockies, Royal Lytham, Royal Birkdale, Formby, Royal Liverpool, Swinley Forest, St. George's Hill, Berkshire Red, Walton Heath Old, Austin GC,

Kalen Braley

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2024, 01:48:51 PM »
John Kirk summed it up in a post a few years back and it kinda stuck.

The basic gist as I recall:

The more time the ball spends rolling on the ground relative to flying in the air...in general the more fun the golf is! 

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2024, 02:13:01 PM »
Soft parkland is a chess game, and rewards precision and strategy. Every shot reflects the skill and planning of the player, and the round is battle for every stroke gained.

Links golf is a game of poker, where strategy still matters and taking big gambles can pay off huge, but you have to pick your moments very carefully, because there’s always that bit of bad luck will show up here and there — a bad bounce or gust of wind — that will really shake up the leaderboard.

Niall C

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2024, 04:16:19 PM »
Soft parkland is a chess game, and rewards precision and strategy. Every shot reflects the skill and planning of the player, and the round is battle for every stroke gained.

Links golf is a game of poker, where strategy still matters and taking big gambles can pay off huge, but you have to pick your moments very carefully, because there’s always that bit of bad luck will show up here and there — a bad bounce or gust of wind — that will really shake up the leaderboard.


Surely if anything it is the opposite ? With a soft parkland course you can generally come in from any angle and the ball sticks where it lands. For sure, angles matter irrespective of what Erik says but you've still got a chance of getting it close. Put yourself in the wrong place on a links, even if you're on the fairway, and you are likely stuffed.


Niall

Ira Fishman

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2024, 04:30:46 PM »
Soft parkland is a chess game, and rewards precision and strategy. Every shot reflects the skill and planning of the player, and the round is battle for every stroke gained.

Links golf is a game of poker, where strategy still matters and taking big gambles can pay off huge, but you have to pick your moments very carefully, because there’s always that bit of bad luck will show up here and there — a bad bounce or gust of wind — that will really shake up the leaderboard.


Surely if anything it is the opposite ? With a soft parkland course you can generally come in from any angle and the ball sticks where it lands. For sure, angles matter irrespective of what Erik says but you've still got a chance of getting it close. Put yourself in the wrong place on a links, even if you're on the fairway, and you are likely stuffed.


Niall


Agree. Matt, I find your skill/luck analysis intriguing, but golf is very elusive of putting into a 4 X 4.


Ira

John Kirk

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2024, 05:04:16 PM »
Hi Tommy,


I'll take a crack at this one, which means I'll restate something I said years ago.


Golf played in a sandy environment near the ocean generally features firm, bouncy turf and omnipresent winds.  The firm turf and windy conditions demand a more complex game plan in which the need to control the trajectory of one's shots is enhanced.  It's not a hard and fast rule.  Tom Watson won five British Opens and has stated that he never tried to adjust the trajectory of his shots.  For most mortals, being able to hit a low ball with the tuck and roll into the wind, and then turn around and hit them high and as soft as possible downwind, is fun and challenging and generally rewarding.


To summarize, links golf is better because it's more complicated and there's more to consider.


Thomas Dai

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2024, 05:08:49 PM »
Free draining terrain.
Similarly why heathland, downland, moorland, hilltop, sandbelt sites are usually preferable to clay based parkland terrain.
atb

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2024, 05:15:34 PM »
Because it’s easier to get away with bad shots and harder to be rewarded for good ones. Enjoyment is proportional to time spent interacting with the ground. The wind, and the turf, it’s all so absurdly perfect for this silly game.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2024, 05:17:26 PM by Ben Sims »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2024, 06:44:18 PM »
Hi Tommy,


I'll take a crack at this one, which means I'll restate something I said years ago.

To summarize, links golf is better because it's more complicated and there's more to consider.


That's true. I actually hadn't put that together. It is more complicated. There are so many things to consider and is there a better feeling than hitting a crisp iron of links turf?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Kirk

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2024, 06:55:59 PM »

That's true. I actually hadn't put that together. It is more complicated. There are so many things to consider and is there a better feeling than hitting a crisp iron of links turf?

In my opinion, no.  But making a 20-30 foot putt when you make a good stroke is right up there, and I currently have no fond recollections of solidly struck drives for comparison.


 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2024, 07:08:35 PM »
Hi Tommy,


I'll take a crack at this one, which means I'll restate something I said years ago.

To summarize, links golf is better because it's more complicated and there's more to consider.


That's true. I actually hadn't put that together. It is more complicated. There are so many things to consider and is there a better feeling than hitting a crisp iron of links turf?


I would add that all of the complications make the same course more different from day to day.  On parkland courses, in time, the members come to think of the holes as a drive and a 7-iron (or whatever).  Links golf is seldom so routine, so it doesn’t become boring over time.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2024, 01:49:03 AM »
Brad Faxon tells a story of falling in love with links golf at Gullane #1. I think the 7th hole.
One day he drove it on the green and the next it was a driver and a 3 wood.


And the par 5s you'd never reach in two - until the day you did and it would be with a 4 iron second shot.
Portmarnock 6 was one example I remember.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2024, 02:24:26 AM »
Tom Doak is right a links course is never the same. Variations of wind speed, direction and temperature are one thing, but variation of bounce is the bigger issue. Last week you could land on the green and stop the ball, this week will it do the same or will you need to land 3 or 7 or 10 yards short? Judgement of bounce doesn’t come easy and no one ever becomes the complete expert.
Cave Nil Vino

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2024, 02:21:13 PM »
Soft parkland is a chess game, and rewards precision and strategy. Every shot reflects the skill and planning of the player, and the round is battle for every stroke gained.

Links golf is a game of poker, where strategy still matters and taking big gambles can pay off huge, but you have to pick your moments very carefully, because there’s always that bit of bad luck will show up here and there — a bad bounce or gust of wind — that will really shake up the leaderboard.


Surely if anything it is the opposite ? With a soft parkland course you can generally come in from any angle and the ball sticks where it lands. For sure, angles matter irrespective of what Erik says but you've still got a chance of getting it close. Put yourself in the wrong place on a links, even if you're on the fairway, and you are likely stuffed.


Niall


Agree. Matt, I find your skill/luck analysis intriguing, but golf is very elusive of putting into a 4 X 4.


Ira


It is exactly that you can stop the ball on the green, and have a fairly certain position from the rough to get on the green, that I compare it to a game of chess.


That is, it’s a perfect information game.


When we talk about links golf, often we’re talking about rough that could just as easily leave you sitting clean as it will leave you unplayable. We’re talking about short par threes where reaching the green is about judging the wind more than striking the face purely. It’s about playing a knockdown shot into a kicker because you are terrified to put the ball up in the air.


Imperfect information means risk, and risk means hedging, unless the benefit outweigh the risk in the long run.


You’re more likely to calculate the positive expected value of different shots on a links course than on parkland, where your only options are probably bomb and gouge or lay back and play in.

Ira Fishman

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2024, 04:47:53 PM »
Matt, I understand your philosophy, but what links courses have you played to validate it?

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2024, 04:53:00 PM »
Matt, I understand your philosophy, but what links courses have you played to validate it?

Not quite sure why I’m being investigated here, but…

I earned a graduate degree in Edinburgh and during that time my favorite links course was the New Course.

Currently in the Bay Area, the links-like courses I prefer are the three near the Oakland airport.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2024, 05:14:46 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Craig Sweet

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2024, 04:57:34 PM »
Beautiful location..the weather...the near by villagers....the beer...the whisky....the food.

Ian Andrew

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2024, 06:30:11 PM »
Inconsistency. Some holes are insanely hard, some holes are rather easy. Wind can reverse which is which. It’s all fine.
The need to keep score “every round” limits the randomness golf courses should have.


I play a regular game at a course designed by a European designer. It’s not changed to suit North American preferences … yet.
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

PCCraig

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2024, 08:42:31 PM »
I would say creativity. At least for me.


Ball striking in the wind (flighting up, down, to the sides) is so much fun. So is playing shots to give your best chance to have your ball interact with the turf the way you want it to.


Then around the green, creativity comes into play as there are so many ways to get up and down. Not just in club selection but playing the ground (and again the wind).


Also agree with the idea that the course rarely plays the same way, even in the same round. It can be blowing 60mps on the 1st tee then sunny & 20mph wind by the 12th hole.


Links golf is the best!
H.P.S.

Kalen Braley

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Re: So why do we love Links golf?
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2024, 10:00:03 PM »
Matt,

I can appreciate the analogy, but I think some of us may be getting hung up on the chess part as it relates to presumably less complicated parkland courses relative to links which make you think more going thru all the options (and as mentioned could vary significantly day to day).

If you went with checkers that would be palatable;)