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Will E

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Who were Langford and Moreau?
« on: July 15, 2002, 09:21:46 PM »
It appears that I am not the only one who doesn't really know much about these fellows. From the looks of Langford's work and knowing he went to Yale it seems that he was heavily influenced by CBM and SR.
However, when Langford was at Yale the golf course had not yet been built. Where did his style come from?  Was there any relationship between CBM and WL? Am I alone in thinking that Langford and Moreau don't get the respect they deserve?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who were Langford and Moreau?
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2002, 12:19:17 AM »
I believe they did Lawsonia.  Also, some of Skokie was revised under L and M.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who were Langford and Moreau?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2002, 12:54:03 AM »
The only Langford work I've seen is in WI. and most of it has been so reworked that it's difficult to recognize. As far as I can tell Lawsonia is about as pure of a Langford course there is today. I've yet to see Harrison Hills and the work Liddy did in making it an 18 holer, Ran's review of the course makes it look quite appealing. It's interesting that West Bend was also a nine hole job and later chose to have another architect add nine more in a totally different style. West Bend's Langford nine is really sporty and would be a favorite of many here.
Lawsonia shares many features that are found on CBM and SR's courses, in some cases even more extreme! I can't recommend Lawsonia enough, can someone say fall GCA event?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Frank U. Kaiser

Re: Who were Langford and Moreau?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2002, 02:12:44 AM »
Not much is known about the influences on William Langford.  He worked for the American Park Builders early in his career, but I don't know how that influenced him.  Theodore Moreau mainly performed construction, so he probably did not influence Langford much.

Most of Langford's courses are in the Midwest and Florida.  I've played about ten of his courses.  The best I have played is Lawsonia in Wisconsin, which has unique, raised greens that look somewhat out-of-place in the pastoral Wisconsin farmland.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Glenn Muckley

Re: Who were Langford and Moreau?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2002, 07:21:54 PM »
Thank you for this post, shooter.

I wholeheartedly agree that these two are underrated.

I grew up playing a Langford course, Franklin County Country Club, in southern Illinois.  I am very biased, however, I still regard the original Langford nine as one of the best little tracks I've ever played.  For a site that is not overly inspiring, the routing is fantastic.  The green complexes are outstanding.  The topo really comes into play and decisions must be made on every hole.  Ted Moreau was essentially the construction engineer and, to my knowledge, never did anything on his own.  Many of their courses do have a very CBM, SR, or Banks feel.  If I had the time to invest, I would seriously consider researching them in depth.

If anyone has any additional information on either Bill Langford or Ted Moreau, I would love to hear it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joe Hancock

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Re: Who were Langford and Moreau?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2002, 07:38:13 PM »
A Langford and Moreau course, Blythefield CC, is right next door to me. It's been through at least 3 different renovations by different members of the Matthews Family of architects, most recently by Bruce and his Design3 company back in 1999. I grew up with Blythefield in my back yard, but quite honestly I probably haven't played it a dozen times. It is a good course, some strong par 4s and always has been imaculately groomed. I wish I knew more of its history, although I believe it held some sort of professional event way back when.

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

BCrosby

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Re: Who were Langford and Moreau?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2002, 08:10:48 PM »
The Culver Academy golf course (Indiana) and the Maxinkuckee Golf Club just down the street are both by Langford, I believe.  I played the Culver course hundreds of times.  The other course less often.  Both have some very good holes.  

I would love to learn more about them.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick Hitt

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Re: Who were Langford and Moreau?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2002, 01:34:35 AM »
A quote from "Placing Hazards" by William Langford reprinted in Masters of the Links
"The only general statement that can be made is this: hazards should be placed  so that any player can avoid them if he guages his ability correctly, so that they will make every man's game more interesting, no matter what class of player he is, and offer a reward commensurate with the player's ability."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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jayc

Re: Who were Langford and Moreau?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2002, 11:33:24 AM »
"What is a Championship Course?"
by William B. Langford (USGA Journal Sept '48)
     The usual request made of a golf course architect by the construction committee of a new golf club is that he shall create a championship course.  Most of the members probably would prefer a layout they could enjoy--they should have one.  However, a champiosip course can be made pleasant for the rank and file.  The ability to make it so is the architect's real test.
     The term "championship course" means various things to different golfers.  There is no definite standard which stamps one course as championship and another as mine-run, nor is it possible or desirable to have such a standard.
     It is not desirable because the charm of golf lies in its variety, in the ever-changing mental and physical problems presented the player by weather, terrain, luck and his opponent.
     It is not possible because no two golf course sites are the same, and no two architects would design the same, and no two architects would design the same or probably even similar courses on any given site.  Could he forget his previous production, any one designer would, in all likelihood, bring forth different layouts at each succeeding attempt.
     Many champions owe their success to supreme competence in one of the various departments of the game: wood club play, long irons, short irons, chipping, putting, or recovery shots.  Hence, the length of a course cannot alone measure its championship calibre.  The player whose long woods and irons might make him invincible on one course could be in constant difficulty on a layout where tricky short shots predominate.
     Custom now dictates that a championship course must measure at least 6,500 yards.  This is a fallacy, for the distribution of length much more than the total yardage determines a course's character.  A short course may present more long shots to the green than one of considerably greater total length.  this can be illustrated by the following which shows two hypothetical courses arranged in order of length.
Course A:
Length of holes: 480*,470*,460* 450*, 440*, 430*,415*,400,385,370,355,340,325,210*,180,
155,135,129=6,120
Course B:
570,555,540,480*,465*,450*,435*,420*,405,390,
375,360,345,330,180,160,140,120=6,720
*=Hole Calling for Long Shot to Green
     Course A contains eight holes affording long shots to the green, although it measures only 6,120 yards; while Course B, 600 yards longer, has only five holes calling for long wood or iron shots home.
    Any course, short or long, with 18 holes which require accuracy or distance and are sufficiently varied to test all deparments of the game is a course fit for a championship.  One which unduly rewards excellence in any one shot is not a fair test of all-around ability and thus not of true championship status.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who were Langford and Moreau?
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2003, 09:25:20 PM »
The profile Daniel Wexler gives of Key West Golf Club makes me wonder if this would be considered the greatest L&M course if it were still around. Anyone ever heard anything about this course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

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Re: Who were Langford and Moreau?
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2003, 10:26:11 AM »
I've reported here before, that Ron Whitten has said that he found some Langford business papers in the basement of a home WL lived in while he worked in Chicago.  I'm disappointed that RW has not (to my knowledge) written about what those papers might tell us about Langford.  Perhaps they are just boring books and accounts that have no insight into the man as a GCA.  All I can say is how stunned I was to see Raynor's Yeaman's Hall and how it really looks and plays like Lawsonia.  Brian Schneider also has examined Langford courses, but of course he is busy in New Zealand. 8)

Shooter, looks like spring has retreated yet again. ???  We will have to sample some new stuff this year...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Goldman

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Re: Who were Langford and Moreau?
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2003, 10:35:54 AM »
My understanding is that they also did Ozaukee Country Club near Mequon, WI (and not far from Milwaukee CC).  Is any of their work still left or has it been changed too much?

Jeff Goldman
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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That was one hellacious beaver.

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who were Langford and Moreau?
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2003, 04:32:58 PM »
Jeff,
I know Ozaukee pretty well. On a few holes you can see clear evidence of Langford's work. The par 3's seem to most resemble the bold, sharp style I associate with L&M. The birthday cake green on 14 is my favorite example. Sadly, most of the original work here has been deleted and the course is fairly typical of most country clubs. There are a few great holes and the course is always in fine shape. It's worth a look if you're in the area. Like West Bend it could stand to lose a couple of hundred trees or so.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Goldman

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Re: Who were Langford and Moreau?
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2003, 05:58:08 PM »
Shooter,

Thanks.  I drive by there all the time (a sister lives in Meqon), including last monday when I played the meadow-valleys course at BWR (its been open almost a week).

Jeff Goldman
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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That was one hellacious beaver.
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