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Ben Hollerbach

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If every green complex has been rebuilt and changed. If multiple greens have been moved. If every hole, but the 6th, has been lengthened. If doglegs have been straightened and bent.  If every bunker has been added, moved, rebuilt, or removed....

Is it still accurate to consider Augusta National a MacKenzie design? Is the basic routing being his enough to retain the design credit or is just convenient to reference MacKenzie with the design credit? It would seem more accurate that the course is inspired by Mackenzie more than designed by him.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
I've always wondered how architects felt about this sort of thing. To me, the base routing is the most important thing, no matter how many idiots choose to alter it later. And they are generally idiots, imho.


Here's hoping some of our on-board architects will chime in.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
The biggest difference to me is the bunker shapes, sizes and positions in the current version donít resemble the original.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2024, 05:21:05 PM by Tim Martin »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
The correct attribution today is probably a "hodgepodge", but there isn't anyone who had more influence on it than MacKenzie and Bobby Jones.


If you wanted to be inclusive you would probably have to list at least Perry Maxwell and Robert Trent Jones for the holes they redesigned.  Nicklaus and Fazio have also done work to it, but I don't know if they did enough work to justify "credit" . . . it's just all a matter of how deep you want to go.

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
The correct attribution today is probably a "hodgepodge", but there isn't anyone who had more influence on it than MacKenzie and Bobby Jones.


If you wanted to be inclusive you would probably have to list at least Perry Maxwell and Robert Trent Jones for the holes they redesigned.  Nicklaus and Fazio have also done work to it, but I don't know if they did enough work to justify "credit" . . . it's just all a matter of how deep you want to go.


Would it be more accurate to associate Augusta National similar to Pine Valley and credit Bobby Jones, as he was the consistent influence from Mackenzie through Maxwell, RTJ, Cobb, etcÖ

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
The correct attribution today is probably a "hodgepodge", but there isn't anyone who had more influence on it than MacKenzie and Bobby Jones.


If you wanted to be inclusive you would probably have to list at least Perry Maxwell and Robert Trent Jones for the holes they redesigned.  Nicklaus and Fazio have also done work to it, but I don't know if they did enough work to justify "credit" . . . it's just all a matter of how deep you want to go.


Would it be more accurate to associate Augusta National similar to Pine Valley and credit Bobby Jones, as he was the consistent influence from Mackenzie through Maxwell, RTJ, Cobb, etcÖ


No.  Crump needed Colt's help, and Jones needed MacKenzie's.

Tom Dunne

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This question closely relates to the "Ship of Theseus" paradox posited by Plutarch almost 2,000 years ago. In Greek mythology, the Athenians would make an annual seafaring pilgrimage to commemorate Theseus' slaying of the minotaur and rescue of the city's children. As the decades passed, they naturally had to replace various aging components of the ship until all the original ones were gone, thus prompting the thought experiment.


One resolution puts forth the concept of "continued identity"--that if the process is gradual enough and careful enough, the community would still recognize the ship in a way they likely would not if it was rebuilt all in one go.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
This question closely relates to the "Ship of Theseus" paradox posited by Plutarch almost 2,000 years ago. In Greek mythology, the Athenians would make an annual seafaring pilgrimage to commemorate Theseus' slaying of the minotaur and rescue of the city's children. As the decades passed, they naturally had to replace various aging components of the ship until all the original ones were gone, thus prompting the thought experiment.


One resolution puts forth the concept of "continued identity"--that if the process is gradual enough and careful enough, the community would still recognize the ship in a way they likely would not if it was rebuilt all in one go.


Where I am from itís grandpaís hammer. Itís had three new handles and a new head, but itís still grandpaís hammer.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
I feel it is more like a Perry Maxwell course than a Mackenzie - Royal Melbourne looks more of a Mackenzie course than Augusta.

Tom Dunne

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This question closely relates to the "Ship of Theseus" paradox posited by Plutarch almost 2,000 years ago. In Greek mythology, the Athenians would make an annual seafaring pilgrimage to commemorate Theseus' slaying of the minotaur and rescue of the city's children. As the decades passed, they naturally had to replace various aging components of the ship until all the original ones were gone, thus prompting the thought experiment.


One resolution puts forth the concept of "continued identity"--that if the process is gradual enough and careful enough, the community would still recognize the ship in a way they likely would not if it was rebuilt all in one go.


Where I am from itís grandpaís hammer. Itís had three new handles and a new head, but itís still grandpaís hammer.


Ciao


Sean,


There have been lots of interesting variants. The human body itself can be considered a "Ship of Theseus"--as our cells die and regenerate, in the literal sense we become new people over the course of our lifetimes. And yet we are still ourselves. So maybe there is something more to identity than physical components.


The philosopher Hobbes centuries later extended the problem of the ship by wondering if some people stood next to the dock and gathered up all of the discarded original pieces to conduct a faithful rebuild later on...would *that* be Theseus' ship? And I think there's actually a golf analogue there, too--the Sand Valley Lido!




 






 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
I feel it is more like a Perry Maxwell course than a Mackenzie - Royal Melbourne looks more of a Mackenzie course than Augusta.


Australians might likewise say that Royal Melbourne looks more like Alex Russell or Mick Morcomís work.  Dr MacKenzie never saw either of these places after the course was completed.


I think your comment about Maxwell goes to the decision not to build many bunkers at Augusta, but that choice was made by Jones and MacKenzie long before Perry Maxwell was involved.  You could make the case that the simpler look of the bunkers today (as opposed to the original sprawling bunkers) owes something to Maxwell, as he was the first architect to see them after they were completed.

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
I feel it is more like a Perry Maxwell course than a Mackenzie - Royal Melbourne looks more of a Mackenzie course than Augusta.


Australians might likewise say that Royal Melbourne looks more like Alex Russell or Mick Morcomís work.  Dr MacKenzie never saw either of these places after the course was completed.


I think your comment about Maxwell goes to the decision not to build many bunkers at Augusta, but that choice was made by Jones and MacKenzie long before Perry Maxwell was involved.  You could make the case that the simpler look of the bunkers today (as opposed to the original sprawling bunkers) owes something to Maxwell, as he was the first architect to see them after they were completed.
Was it Maxwell that began simplifying the bunkers, or was that more the work of RTJ & George Cobb?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
I feel it is more like a Perry Maxwell course than a Mackenzie - Royal Melbourne looks more of a Mackenzie course than Augusta.


Australians might likewise say that Royal Melbourne looks more like Alex Russell or Mick Morcomís work.  Dr MacKenzie never saw either of these places after the course was completed.


I think your comment about Maxwell goes to the decision not to build many bunkers at Augusta, but that choice was made by Jones and MacKenzie long before Perry Maxwell was involved.  You could make the case that the simpler look of the bunkers today (as opposed to the original sprawling bunkers) owes something to Maxwell, as he was the first architect to see them after they were completed.
Was it Maxwell that began simplifying the bunkers, or was that more the work of RTJ & George Cobb?


I don't know the history, but I'd bet on Maxwell.  I do not recall seeing many pictures of the course from the 1940s.

Bill Crane

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There is probably another thread that addresses this topic, but wow, Augusta would be really interesting with MacKenzie style bunkering. 
With ample fingers and segments that style of bunkering might actually be more challenging with the constant risk of getting tough stances and odd shots necessitating creative shotmaking from both fairway and greenside bunkering.
The old photos in another thread really stuck in my mind.
Pros would probably hate it.
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( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

MClutterbuck

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You can see such bunkers in some of the older Master reels. Not sure the App has the 1940s tournaments, but the club has them for sure. They are beautiful.

Tom_Doak

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I hate to say it but some of those old bunkers look pretty silly to me, considering the site is 100% Georgia clay.  Chacon a son gout!

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

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I've wondered this for a long time about renovated courses. I always think about the guy who had the same hammer for 50 years - he only replaced 3 heads and 4 handles.....


But I look at golf courses differently and use cars as an analogy. There is a company in CA that is "restoring" old Porsches to better than new - they redo everything, however, I still identify it as a Porsche as the original bones/lines/body shell/engine block is there while the rest has been modified/upgraded. So if it were a golf course, the obvious identity is the same (the routing, the basic shapes etc), the tweaked body is the new bunkering/aesthetics and the upgraded engine the new mechanicals (greens mixes, subair, drainage, etc) added underneath.


On the flip side, a replica is just that, an homage to the real thing on a different setting.


ANGC will always be ANGC and for me a MacKenzie in name and spirit as someone from the 30s could still identify it even through the changes.
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

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