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Michael Morandi

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David_Tepper

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« Last Edit: April 05, 2024, 11:06:27 AM by David_Tepper »

Michael Morandi

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2024, 01:11:37 PM »
Somewhat related: a house on the coast of Nantucket sold for a 75% discount to the original listing price just months before when a storm took out most of its protection from the ocean.

David_Tepper

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2024, 01:27:19 PM »
The California coastline is by no means immune from the threat of coastal erosion:

https://www.foxweather.com/extreme-weather/south-california-homes-cliff-edge-erosion

https://www.sfchronicle.com/california/article/highway-1-crumbling-cost-infrastructure-19379465.php

Homes both north and south of San Francisco have been lost in the past 20-30 years, as well as holes at the Olympic Club.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2024, 01:31:02 PM by David_Tepper »

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2024, 02:00:18 PM »
California cliff erosion is, as far as I know, a natural process. In Introduction to Beaches and Shoreline Processes at BU, the homes falling off of cliffs was famed very differently than coastal erosion from sea level rise. Maybe that perspective has changed since 20 years ago.

Winter storm beach loss and rising sea levels was a huge focus of the class. There will large effects of climate change in my lifetime unfortunately. Itís a shame we knew about it and what to do back in 1992 and did nothing.
Building an encyclopedia of golf courses that anyone can edit: Golf Course Wiki
Some strong opinions on golf: Wigs on the Green
I really think golf culture should be more like beer culture than wine culture

George Pazin

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2024, 02:43:27 PM »
California cliff erosion is, as far as I know, a natural process. In Introduction to Beaches and Shoreline Processes at BU, the homes falling off of cliffs was famed very differently than coastal erosion from sea level rise. Maybe that perspective has changed since 20 years ago.

Winter storm beach loss and rising sea levels was a huge focus of the class. There will large effects of climate change in my lifetime unfortunately. Itís a shame we knew about it and what to do back in 1992 and did nothing.


What would you have done?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Pierre Cruikshank

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2024, 03:11:47 PM »
California cliff erosion is, as far as I know, a natural process. In Introduction to Beaches and Shoreline Processes at BU, the homes falling off of cliffs was famed very differently than coastal erosion from sea level rise. Maybe that perspective has changed since 20 years ago.

Winter storm beach loss and rising sea levels was a huge focus of the class. There will large effects of climate change in my lifetime unfortunately. Itís a shame we knew about it and what to do back in 1992 and did nothing.



David,
    When I was in grad school I worked for a paleoclimatologist, building computer models on various impacts of sea level rise. My area of interest at that time was the hydrological cycle - ocean's biological pump.


So. Cal will probably be worse off than No. Cal. CA will continue to see increase land erosion as the severity of rain/drought conditions increase. The most dramatic impacts will likely be in Florida. Most of South Florida is 1 metre or less above sea level. Whereas Jupiter/Palm Beach/ Hobe Sound/ etc are around 2 metres above sea level. 

When you look at sea level rise projections for Florida it makes sense new golf courses are being built in central Florida. (https://databasin.org/datasets/dd54d301894f4322a7a30832572c4a7e/ )


NOAA sea level rise scenario mapper - US cities
https://coast.noaa.gov/slr/#/layer/slr/1/-9008409.531521162/3320844.912363625/11/satellite/none/0.8/2050/interHigh/midAccretion 




Miami Beach is repurposing a former golf course, Bayshore Park, into a wetland / water retention lake.
https://revitalization.org/article/this-39-million-investment-will-boost-resilience-in-the-miami-area-such-as-by-restoring-a-former-golf-course-into-a-wetland-park/




Comments from Jason Straka, 2021 CNN interview climate change & golf courses
https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/08/golf/climate-change-sustainability-spt-intl-cmd/index.html
« Last Edit: April 06, 2024, 01:04:34 AM by Pierre Cruikshank »
"Photons have mass? I didnít even know they were Catholic.Ē
― Woody Allen

Kalen Braley

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2024, 03:24:42 PM »

This particular chart is very disturbing,

Meanwhile here in Utah, climate change deniers are buying and driving massive trucks/SUVs at alarming rates out of spite.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2024, 03:56:19 PM »
The California coastline is by no means immune from the threat of coastal erosion:
And don't forget Pebble losing much of the 18th fairway causing them to build that fake stone wall.  Thread from 2010 https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=43207.0

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2024, 04:03:59 PM »
George,

If we had added CO2 to the Sulfur Dioxide cap-and-trade treaties we signed in the mid-1990s, we would not be in our current situation.
Building an encyclopedia of golf courses that anyone can edit: Golf Course Wiki
Some strong opinions on golf: Wigs on the Green
I really think golf culture should be more like beer culture than wine culture

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2024, 04:10:26 PM »
If we had added CO2 to the Sulfur Dioxide cap-and-trade treaties we signed in the mid-1990s, we would not be in our current situation.
I wonder if there is the political will on this.  Here in Canada we have had a carbon tax for several years, but it has become a huge political issue and it is one, of many, factors leading to the extreme unpopularity of the current government.
People know that climate change is an issue, but they don't want to pay more for fuel for their cars or natural gas or oil to heat their homes.

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2024, 05:58:51 PM »
Wayne, when I say ďweĒ I mean society, not some government.

Further than that, a cap-and-trade system is actually more flexible than a carbon tax, while at the same time controls emissions better. As demand increases more GHG emissions can be dedicated to transportation and heating and less to, say, concrete production (note here concrete emissions arenít actually co2).

Itís a bummer, and path dependency is a tough nut to crack, but itís pretty clear that most people arenít arguing about trade offs. Even in liberal California where I live, the concern is mostly hypocritical signaling, while preserving the extremely carbon dependent sprawl and automobile first infrastructure.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2024, 06:05:27 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
Building an encyclopedia of golf courses that anyone can edit: Golf Course Wiki
Some strong opinions on golf: Wigs on the Green
I really think golf culture should be more like beer culture than wine culture

Mark Pearce

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2024, 04:16:10 PM »
California cliff erosion is, as far as I know, a natural process. In Introduction to Beaches and Shoreline Processes at BU, the homes falling off of cliffs was famed very differently than coastal erosion from sea level rise. Maybe that perspective has changed since 20 years ago.

Winter storm beach loss and rising sea levels was a huge focus of the class. There will large effects of climate change in my lifetime unfortunately. Itís a shame we knew about it and what to do back in 1992 and did nothing.


What would you have done?
That's really quite a disingenuous question, George.  We've had over 30 years to take action to reduce emissions but to this day, there isn't the political will, even as we begin to see the long predicted effects actually happening.  In a crowded field, potentially mankind's greatest failing.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2024, 05:28:43 PM »
Maybe when the Great Combeover Golfer talked about building a wall what he really meant was a series of sea-walls built around his links golf courses! :)
Atb

James Reader

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2024, 07:45:09 AM »
California cliff erosion is, as far as I know, a natural process. In Introduction to Beaches and Shoreline Processes at BU, the homes falling off of cliffs was famed very differently than coastal erosion from sea level rise. Maybe that perspective has changed since 20 years ago.

Winter storm beach loss and rising sea levels was a huge focus of the class. There will large effects of climate change in my lifetime unfortunately. Itís a shame we knew about it and what to do back in 1992 and did nothing.


What would you have done?
That's really quite a disingenuous question, George.  We've had over 30 years to take action to reduce emissions but to this day, there isn't the political will, even as we begin to see the long predicted effects actually happening.  In a crowded field, potentially mankind's greatest failing.


I fear that ďBut what could we have done?Ē and ďWhy did no one warn us this was going to happen?íí will be heard increasingly over the coming years.

Mike Wagner

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2024, 05:45:54 PM »
California cliff erosion is, as far as I know, a natural process. In Introduction to Beaches and Shoreline Processes at BU, the homes falling off of cliffs was famed very differently than coastal erosion from sea level rise. Maybe that perspective has changed since 20 years ago.

Winter storm beach loss and rising sea levels was a huge focus of the class. There will large effects of climate change in my lifetime unfortunately. Itís a shame we knew about it and what to do back in 1992 and did nothing.


What would you have done?
That's really quite a disingenuous question, George.  We've had over 30 years to take action to reduce emissions but to this day, there isn't the political will, even as we begin to see the long predicted effects actually happening.  In a crowded field, potentially mankind's greatest failing.


It's a completely valid question. Arguments over emissions make me laugh. You'll never get the right data to know the right answers .. but you will get the data they want you to have.

Steve Wilson

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2024, 06:19:16 PM »
If George's question is disingenuous try this one.  "What would you do about the all of the coal fired plants that China and India have brought and will continue to bring on line?"


It seems to me that there is a school of thought that thinks we in the west should do the suffering while those two nations do the developing.   


Climate catastrophe, like cold fusion, is probably always going to be right around the corner.
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Mike_Young

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2024, 08:48:08 PM »
California cliff erosion is, as far as I know, a natural process. In Introduction to Beaches and Shoreline Processes at BU, the homes falling off of cliffs was famed very differently than coastal erosion from sea level rise. Maybe that perspective has changed since 20 years ago.

Winter storm beach loss and rising sea levels was a huge focus of the class. There will large effects of climate change in my lifetime unfortunately. Itís a shame we knew about it and what to do back in 1992 and did nothing.


What would you have done?
That's really quite a disingenuous question, George.  We've had over 30 years to take action to reduce emissions but to this day, there isn't the political will, even as we begin to see the long predicted effects actually happening.  In a crowded field, potentially mankind's greatest failing.


It's a completely valid question. Arguments over emissions make me laugh. You'll never get the right data to know the right answers .. but you will get the data they want you to have.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2024, 08:49:41 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JLahrman

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2024, 09:01:55 PM »
If George's question is disingenuous try this one.  "What would you do about the all of the coal fired plants that China and India have brought and will continue to bring on line?"

It seems to me that there is a school of thought that thinks we in the west should do the suffering while those two nations do the developing.


I'm not sure how you define "suffering", and China in particular is a huge coal consumer, but the US has twice China's per capita emissions rate and more than ten times India's.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2024, 03:31:34 AM »
If George's question is disingenuous try this one.  "What would you do about the all of the coal fired plants that China and India have brought and will continue to bring on line?"


It seems to me that there is a school of thought that thinks we in the west should do the suffering while those two nations do the developing.   


Climate catastrophe, like cold fusion, is probably always going to be right around the corner.
So the answer is to "drill, baby drill" because the developing World won't play ball?  That's utter nonsense.  How about displaying some leadership?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2024, 03:34:47 AM »
Climate catastrophe, like cold fusion, is probably always going to be right around the corner.
We can already see the start of one, which will take a while to reach real catastrophe but, if it is to be averted, needs action now.  The other will be here in a few decades which will be a few decades too late.  Ignoring the facts is not an approach our children will thank us for.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2024, 06:22:28 AM »

Further than that, a cap-and-trade system is actually more flexible than a carbon tax, while at the same time controls emissions better. As demand increases more GHG emissions can be dedicated to transportation and heating and less to, say, concrete production (note here concrete emissions arenít actually co2).


Matt:


The only thing I'm sure cap and trade will do, is to provide another avenue for the finance industry to make money off of the decline of civilization.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2024, 06:53:43 AM »
When golf started to become popular and popular internationally, say circa 1900, the Worlds population was approx 1.5 billion. Itís now approx 8.0 billion.
Not surprising that things have got a bit warmer with all the extra activity an additional 6.5 billion people have generated and continue to generate.
Fingers crossed for the future and not just the future of golf.
Atb

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2024, 01:39:03 PM »
If George's question is disingenuous try this one.  "What would you do about the all of the coal fired plants that China and India have brought and will continue to bring on line?"
The effects of climate changes are going to be as harmful, if not more so, to China and India that they will be to the United States. We agree to verifiable treaties exactly because everybody is skeptical of each other. The irony of this whole situation is that Canada, the United States, and Russia are the only nations whose fortunes may actually locally improve from a warming world. In addition, China has been the world leader in renewable energy production. India is third behind the United States.

We also know that they generally care about the issue because they are signatories to the Paris Agreement, and even agreed to the Kyoto Protocol in 1997, unlike the United States. 

The only thing I'm sure cap and trade will do, is to provide another avenue for the finance industry to make money off of the decline of civilization.
"Would have done." The idea that we could institute a effective cap-and-trade system now impossible. Emissions are way too high. We have done nothing but accelerated GHGs since there was a formal consensus that something needed to be done... in 1992. The model I'm referring to is the extremely successful cap-and-trade program to prevent acid rain that was agreed to during the same period.

Again it's also important to remember that this is the same period when the Montreal Protocol was also put in place do deal with ozone depletion, which was also incredibly successful. Another classic political outcome where people generally don't get rewarded for the disaster they prevent, only the disaster they successfully respond to.

It's a completely valid question. Arguments over emissions make me laugh. You'll never get the right data to know the right answers .. but you will get the data they want you to have.

The conspiratorial accusations of the scientific community continues to astound me in my middle age. You can literally sign up for a university lecture series to understand whats happening and why we know it's happening. They will literally teach you how to verify their research.

Climate catastrophe, like cold fusion, is probably always going to be right around the corner.
It is happening right now. This thread is about golf courses that have existed for hundreds of years suddenly falling into the ocean in multiple places. The Great Barrier Reef is dying... it doesn't get more obvious than that. It is likely that the Syrian Civil War was precipitated by an extraordinary drought. I guess I just wonder what people think climate change is going to look like. Barring any changes to ocean currents, it's not going to be some singular cataclysmic, things are just going to become more and more and more expensive. Fire, flood, and other disaster insurance goes way up. Food gets more expensive as we have to move crops 200 miles north. Eco systems are overwhelmed with invasive species that wouldn't have otherwise survived in that region. There will be more and more conflict as people must migrate to other parts of the world, while others fight over fewer resources. It will likely not end the world, but it will cost so much more than if we just started switching to electric renewable power in the early '90s.

---

The real painful aspect of it though, is that the data keeps coming in that the hot models are correct, and there is nothing we can do to stop this, but it's still an every-little-bit-counts scenario where if we change nothing... it still gets worse.

I know folks might think I'm some lefty partisan, but I assure you I am not. I am still just baffled about how climate change is partisan politics in the United States, when it's primarily an economics issue. When the bills start coming due, like the current changes to Federal Flood Insurance, people are going to really start feeling the effects of climate change for the first time. I honestly wonder if those on the financial end of Florida golf course development are already modeling the effect of these increased premiums in their income projections, as Florida may see a recession or even exodus in the next decade or two if near coastal real estate becomes uninsurable.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2024, 03:38:40 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
Building an encyclopedia of golf courses that anyone can edit: Golf Course Wiki
Some strong opinions on golf: Wigs on the Green
I really think golf culture should be more like beer culture than wine culture

JLahrman

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Re: Old links and climate change threat
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2024, 03:13:21 PM »
+1 on all that Matt

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