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Ben Malach

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2024, 03:25:27 AM »
I have kind of stepped back from these threads as Zach is a friend of mine. So it has been interesting to hear how others in the treehouse have taken and interpreted his criticism. As there I tend to agree a lot of it.

First, there has been a lot of discussion in this and the other thread about the semantic value of his arguments without engaging with any of the claims or thesis apparent in piece. This is not a productive line of argument and just proves that this board has fallen to sniping rather than rising to the challenge implicit in the piece.

As for big, bold and more structured approach to the features of golf course, I think it's an interesting line of argument especially as that's what we are seeing with larger clearing and more imposing features that contrast and standout in these environments not only in person but in images as well.

This makes a lot of sense in that environmental context of a majority of the most recent crop of new courses. As smaller more human scale features like those found at Garden City and other golden age classics. Would be dwarfed in these bolder larger scale environments and are very challenging to make pop on camera.

I also believe that this is not only a shift in taste caused by purely architectural taste. But also a response by architects to the majority of new builds in the past 10 years of golf being resorts.

With clients as always playing a larger role in designs than anyone here or in print would like to admit This is key to me in understanding the trend as a whole. As Zach points out and eloquently argues golf courses are as much a result of cultural forces as they are expressions of art.

As resorts demand more playability, memorability and visibility than their more repeatedly played golf club cousins.  As most of the clients of these places play them once a year if not once in a lifetime. Which is why big, bold and blatant. Became more common as even the most talented architects in the field. Needed to ensure that the course was understood quickly and by a large audience. Which is why templates have almost become de riguere over this period as well. As the function in the same way a boldness telling the golfer the shots to hit to get the expected result. As the luxury of having the guest slowly be shown how to play a hole over multiple rounds is a luxury that few can afford. I almost see this era as a parallel to modern Hollywood. Where modern auteurs like Christopher Nolan and Denis Villeneuve are the kings of the modern blockbuster.


The work is still amazing and of quality but the moving parts have to fit the budget and expectations of a wide and general audience.

This is where the rub lies with all of this. We are finally seeing golf courses being designed for more than 1 play. As there has finally been some new courses being built as golf clubs first with some outside play as a distant second thought.


This is where we will see if the rubber hits the road with golf being defined at this scale. Even though this and the other thread have fallen into the trap of comparing Old Barnwell and The Tree Farm. I see them as almost a new breed of this modern aesthetic. As both are wonderful golf courses that fit and live well in their environments. But let's not kid ourselves about the scale and nature of the shaping. Yes, it is bold, brash and hungry. But, that's not wrong in their environments. As if we swapped out their features and put small pots of a Sunningdale or the subdued of hillocks a New Zealand on these sites they would be dwarfed by the existing contour in these locations.

If this group wants and with some permissions. I might be able to show you what I mean by this as I tried as an experiment on a job this summer to put some smaller more intricate bunkers on a bold and brash site. It didn't go well as the power of the environment they were situated in instantly overpowered them. It was a good lesson for me as a shaper to not let my personal preferences dictate the work but to rather let the environment and the scale of the site take the lead.

Just because a feature are bold, loud and large doesn't make them bad or good. Rather its a question of whether the features fit and highlight the chosen landscape. As Don Mahaffey says  above it takes a lot of skill and experience to build these type of features well. Which I think we can all agree has been a hallmark of this new generation of architects getting their feet wet with long overdue new work.

I for one celebrate the fact that there is finally enough work to go around for this to happen. As it's been a tough almost 13 years before this era of new work to begin. As with a few exceptions and one offs few firms were able to get anything new off the ground. Those that did were normal the blockbuster resorts that I mentioned earlier by proven names. That ushed this new generation along by providing a place for guys and girls cut their teeth. Playing the supporting roles of partner, lead associates and construction hands. It's no wonder that these talented architects would lean on some of the tricks they learned in the past era. But, I think it's also rash to paint this work with a brush before the grass has even fully matured on these projects.Time will tell how this all shakes out.

I think that in some ways scale might stay big.Not because there won't be an inevitable want to return to a more soft, subtle and human scale design. But rather that time and money demand golf to be big and loud.

As it takes a lot less time to make something that people can identify and understand if it's loud and let's face it. Time is money. Maybe some of the bigger budget new private clubs can afford to be subdued and more subtle but let's face it. Golf is expensive to build and there is little ROI. So every day I spend massaging a feature before grass goes down can be easily thousands of dollars. This is why it's not uncommon  for the demand for a hole a week to be built on a public project or a smaller budget private with 3-4 shapers in site.

This isn't a bad thing in my view. As I like to work hard and keep rolling, plain and simple. This on turn make it's hard for me to square the circle of how do we make things more intricate and produce at a steady and solid rate.

I know golf architecture isn't making sausage but it isn't all art, and theory either. It's a blend and the leading spice needs to be interesting golf that allows space for the golfer to make choices both good and bad. I think that the bad choices have been lost in this search for scale as people only make bad choices with partial or limited information. This is the real cost of scale as the larger the feature the more dictative it becomes not only to play but to the eye as well.


Then you are almost trapped into an arms race against yourself. As scale has diminishing returns each time it's used. As something can only be big once. That's why it's impressive that some of these places work as well as they do and some of the lesser ones fall flat quickly. This is a problem I spend a lot of time on as I don't think there is an easy answer outside of trying to work with the scale of the land your given. As at the end of the day the real judge of good golf architecture is does it fit the land and will it last there.


Sorry for the length of this response. I just wanted to spend the time to really dive into the subject as I felt most of the replies in this thread. Where targeted at the surface of the issue.


« Last Edit: March 27, 2024, 03:27:16 AM by Ben Malach »
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Thomas Dai

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2024, 07:01:04 AM »


Have a look at the course in India where the DP European Tour are playing this week - a ‘Gary Player design’ apparently - http://www.dlfgolfresort.com/garyplayer.asp
!!!

Atb

Stewart Abramson

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2024, 08:49:33 AM »

This is where the rub lies with all of this. We are finally seeing golf courses being designed for more than 1 play. As there has finally been some new courses being built as golf clubs first with some outside play as a distant second thought.


This is where we will see if the rubber hits the road with golf being defined at this scale. Even though this and the other thread have fallen into the trap of comparing Old Barnwell and The Tree Farm. I see them as almost a new breed of this modern aesthetic. As both are wonderful golf courses that fit and live well in their environments. But let's not kid ourselves about the scale and nature of the shaping. Yes, it is bold, brash and hungry. But, that's not wrong in their environments.



Are we really just seeing that now? What were Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Dismal River, Rock Creek Cattle Co, Bayonne, Devils Tower, Black Rock, Wickenberg Ranch, Gozzer Ranch etc?  Weren't they built primarily as private clubs designed for members  to play multiple rounds with some outside play as a second thought? Aren't most, if not all, of those clubs big, bold and/or manufactured?  I haven't played Old Barnwell or The Tree Farm.  Are they materially bigger and bolder?  Is the "new breed" that much different, or is this being made into a bigger deal than the reality of it?

Tim_Weiman

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2024, 09:25:01 AM »

This is where the rub lies with all of this. We are finally seeing golf courses being designed for more than 1 play. As there has finally been some new courses being built as golf clubs first with some outside play as a distant second thought.


This is where we will see if the rubber hits the road with golf being defined at this scale. Even though this and the other thread have fallen into the trap of comparing Old Barnwell and The Tree Farm. I see them as almost a new breed of this modern aesthetic. As both are wonderful golf courses that fit and live well in their environments. But let's not kid ourselves about the scale and nature of the shaping. Yes, it is bold, brash and hungry. But, that's not wrong in their environments.



Are we really just seeing that now? What were Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Dismal River, Rock Creek Cattle Co, Bayonne, Devils Tower, Black Rock, Wickenberg Ranch, Gozzer Ranch etc?  Weren't they built primarily as private clubs designed for members  to play multiple rounds with some outside play as a second thought? Aren't most, if not all, of those clubs big, bold and/or manufactured?  I haven't played Old Barnwell or The Tree Farm.  Are they materially bigger and bolder?  Is the "new breed" that much different, or is this being made into a bigger deal than the reality of it?
Stewart,


I have played Ballyneal and Rock Creek. There is no way I would describe Ballyneal as too big, bold or manufactured. To the contrary, the golf course, IMO, fits rather gracefully on the land.


Rock Creek is different. I’d say it is big and bold, but I don’t recall feeling anything was too big or bold. Again, the design seemed to fit the landscape and forget ”too manufactured”. I don’t think that applies at all.







Tim Weiman

Stewart Abramson

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2024, 09:59:38 AM »

This is where the rub lies with all of this. We are finally seeing golf courses being designed for more than 1 play. As there has finally been some new courses being built as golf clubs first with some outside play as a distant second thought.


This is where we will see if the rubber hits the road with golf being defined at this scale. Even though this and the other thread have fallen into the trap of comparing Old Barnwell and The Tree Farm. I see them as almost a new breed of this modern aesthetic. As both are wonderful golf courses that fit and live well in their environments. But let's not kid ourselves about the scale and nature of the shaping. Yes, it is bold, brash and hungry. But, that's not wrong in their environments.



Are we really just seeing that now? What were Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Dismal River, Rock Creek Cattle Co, Bayonne, Devils Tower, Black Rock, Wickenberg Ranch, Gozzer Ranch etc?  Weren't they built primarily as private clubs designed for members  to play multiple rounds with some outside play as a second thought? Aren't most, if not all, of those clubs big, bold and/or manufactured?  I haven't played Old Barnwell or The Tree Farm.  Are they materially bigger and bolder?  Is the "new breed" that much different, or is this being made into a bigger deal than the reality of it?
Stewart,


I have played Ballyneal and Rock Creek. There is no way I would describe Ballyneal as too big, bold or manufactured. To the contrary, the golf course, IMO, fits rather gracefully on the land.


Rock Creek is different. I’d say it is big and bold, but I don’t recall feeling anything was too big or bold. Again, the design seemed to fit the landscape and forget ”too manufactured”. I don’t think that applies at all.


Tim, You missed my point. I'm not saying that any of the courses I listed are "too" big and bold. I was simply saying they are big and bold, and that's nothing new.  What I was asking is whether the "new breed" of courses that have been referred to (Tree farm, Old Barnwell etc) are any bigger or bolder than the older ones. The portion of the prior post that I quoted seemed to indicate that big and bold private clubs that were designed for multiple rounds by members was a new phenomenon.  My point was that that's not something that is just now "finally happening" It's something that has been around for a long time as demonstrated by the courses I mentioned.


I don't really know what "too" big and bold means and I'm not sure if any of the new courses are "too" big and bold

Tim_Weiman

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2024, 10:23:55 AM »
Ben Malach,


There is a lot in your lengthy post. Let me just respond to a couple points.


As I wrote in previous posts, of the courses Zachary cited in his Punk article, Old Barnwell is the only one I have seen and played. No doubt the course is big and bold, but in my opinion it fits quite naturally on the land and the manufactured features don’t really overwhelm my senses any more than, say, those at NGLA.


Architecture aside, I’m not sure outside play is a “distant second thought”. Sure, Old Barnwell is a private club (not a resort or public course) but it has welcomed quite a few college teams both male and female. Then, too, the relationship with Voorhees, though in its early days, is at the heart Nick Schreiber’s vision for the club.

Tim Weiman

Tim_Weiman

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2024, 10:27:03 AM »

This is where the rub lies with all of this. We are finally seeing golf courses being designed for more than 1 play. As there has finally been some new courses being built as golf clubs first with some outside play as a distant second thought.


This is where we will see if the rubber hits the road with golf being defined at this scale. Even though this and the other thread have fallen into the trap of comparing Old Barnwell and The Tree Farm. I see them as almost a new breed of this modern aesthetic. As both are wonderful golf courses that fit and live well in their environments. But let's not kid ourselves about the scale and nature of the shaping. Yes, it is bold, brash and hungry. But, that's not wrong in their environments.



Are we really just seeing that now? What were Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Dismal River, Rock Creek Cattle Co, Bayonne, Devils Tower, Black Rock, Wickenberg Ranch, Gozzer Ranch etc?  Weren't they built primarily as private clubs designed for members  to play multiple rounds with some outside play as a second thought? Aren't most, if not all, of those clubs big, bold and/or manufactured?  I haven't played Old Barnwell or The Tree Farm.  Are they materially bigger and bolder?  Is the "new breed" that much different, or is this being made into a bigger deal than the reality of it?
Stewart,


I have played Ballyneal and Rock Creek. There is no way I would describe Ballyneal as too big, bold or manufactured. To the contrary, the golf course, IMO, fits rather gracefully on the land.


Rock Creek is different. I’d say it is big and bold, but I don’t recall feeling anything was too big or bold. Again, the design seemed to fit the landscape and forget ”too manufactured”. I don’t think that applies at all.


Tim, You missed my point. I'm not saying that any of the courses I listed are "too" big and bold. I was simply saying they are big and bold, and that's nothing new.  What I was asking is whether the "new breed" of courses that have been referred to (Tree farm, Old Barnwell etc) are any bigger or bolder than the older ones. The portion of the prior post that I quoted seemed to indicate that big and bold private clubs that were designed for multiple rounds by members was a new phenomenon.  My point was that that's not something that is just now "finally happening" It's something that has been around for a long time as demonstrated by the courses I mentioned.


I don't really know what "too" big and bold means and I'm not sure if any of the new courses are "too" big and bold


Stewart,


Actually, I did get and fully agree with your post. I guess my exact words didn’t express that very well.
Tim Weiman

Michael Chadwick

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2024, 11:52:55 AM »
Golf clap, Ben Malach. Appreciate the heart in the response.


The last few days on this site would almost make you think we're close to seeing different colored fonts again. ;)
Instagram: mj_c_golf

Ben Malach

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2024, 05:27:18 PM »
Tim W and Stewart:


I think you got caught looking at the tree through the ecosystem in my post. The goal of which was more to talk about scale and how it has been evolving over this period. As well as why I think it's going to be harder to the pendulum effect to bring golfs scale back down to a softer, smaller level. (there is no value judgement in these words, just using them to discuss the scale and structure of features).


I almost tried not to include a single golf course or name of an architect in my post. As I don't think it's really fair to pin a hat on someone's work.


Especially one's that just got started and seemingly hit a really solid ball on their first true at bat.


I just was pointing out that Old Barnwell scale is large and that it fits the environment. Yes, this has been done before. But what makes it different is in the past scale has been merely used to match the environment. In some cases I think at Old Barnwell the scale elevates the work. That otherwise would be flattened in such a landscape.
This is something that I think was developed in the new modern era of "naturalist" golf.

The only reason mentioned private clubs is because it's a completely different set of client values than the resorts of the previous years. Making them more likely to give new architects a shot. Hence my discussion of film makers. As it has been the trend in recent years for directors to become noticed with their genre work and then be called up to take more swings at the bigger budget table.

However in golf architecture there is no real middle-low budget project. The closest we get is maybe proving our work through great renovations and restoration projects. This however is great at development of shaping and construction ability but it doesn't allow for us to built the other skills that are required to build a new course. I think all of these guys and gals coming up have proven their value in this space.Its just high time we see what they came do with a larger tool box and canvas.


That's why I said the work and Old Barnwell was impressive. As I was there when it there was still a lot of dirt left to move. I walked the site and part of the routing. I left impressed but hopefull that the work would turn out. It seems that it has as I know that my friends that are members enjoy it.

As to my comments about repeat play. This was more about the clients needing a course that kept the golfers interest time and time again. Which is something I have seen on some modern courses shifted down the priority list in favour of memory, novelty, or playability. This I don't think is the goal with some of the newer projects but as with anything. Time will tell.


Michael c:


Thanks for the kind words. I some ways I miss that era of this site.As that's when I first started reading and contributing here.


Say what you will about some of the stances posed by those no longer here. But, they kept this place alive and sometimes found interesting ways of viewing things.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2024, 05:33:33 PM by Ben Malach »
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Tim_Weiman

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2024, 06:04:08 PM »
Ben,


As far as scale goes, while I don’t think Old Barnwell is “too big”, Sedge Valley is probably the course I would most like to see next. I like the concept of “intimacy” and believe that the vast majority of golfers really don’t need more than about 6,200 yards for a fun challenge.


Then too, as Tom Doak can attest, long ago I advocated doing what Tom did on #7 at Barnbougle, the “little devil” hole.


But, you may be right about golf courses being unlikely to scale back down. Places like Westchester County, NY and the Main Line Philadelphia area are tapped out for golf course development. That might just be why developers sought out properties like The Tree Farm and Old Barnwell.
Tim Weiman

cary lichtenstein

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2024, 07:12:27 PM »
If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, then so, too, are "too big" and "too bold".  [And I do agree with Jeff that they should be separated, although nowadays "too big" is usually more about width than about length.]


There will always be cheerleaders for an architect who goes to extremes, in the short term, but does that style get old quickly?  Mike Strantz and Jim Engh were both named the "Architect of the Year," while I don't think Bill Coore ever was; nor was I, even though I've had some pretty good years in the last 25.



Personally, Streamsong Black fell into the "too big and too bold" category for me; it felt like it was trying hard to outdo the other two courses.  There's a lot of that going on right now.


I for one, liked both Strantz and Engh, as you said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mark Pearce

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2024, 10:41:40 AM »
The two courses I have played that most struck me as "big and bold" are Yale and Lawsonia Links.  And I loved them both and would positively seek out more like them.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tim_Weiman

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2024, 11:55:23 AM »
The two courses I have played that most struck me as "big and bold" are Yale and Lawsonia Links.  And I loved them both and would positively seek out more like them.
Mark,


I have never heard any complaints about Yale other than conditioning and the crazy 18th.


Yes, it is definitely big and bold and has manufactured features.
Tim Weiman

Ira Fishman

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2024, 01:00:18 PM »
The more I think about our round at Yale a couple of years ago, the more I think that the ratings do not do it justice. And we played Sleepy Hollow the day before.


Let's see what happens after the restoration which does look like a restoration versus a re-do.

MCirba

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2024, 02:05:06 PM »
FWIW, I'm a huge fan of the 18th at Yale which might be the biggest, baddest, boldest hole on the planet.   ;D
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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Tim_Weiman

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2024, 02:14:18 PM »
FWIW, I'm a huge fan of the 18th at Yale which might be the biggest, baddest, boldest hole on the planet.   ;D
Mike,


Can you tell us what you like about the 18th at Yale and why you think it isn’t too big and bold?
Tim Weiman

John Kirk

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2024, 02:22:20 PM »
For me, there's an upper bound on how big and bold a course can be.  If you can't walk it because it's too hilly or the holes are too far apart, then it's too much.



Jason Thurman

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2024, 03:08:44 PM »
The two courses I have played that most struck me as "big and bold" are Yale and Lawsonia Links.  And I loved them both and would positively seek out more like them.


This is like if there was a thread on Restaurant Club Atlas with the same title, created after someone wrote an op-ed about how a recent trend of proliferation of burgers like the Octuple Bypass Burger at Heart Attack Grill might be going a little too far, and someone chimed in that they enjoy the Big Mac.


If you think Lawsonia is big and bold, wait until you see Mammoth Dunes. But even Mammoth looks pretty conventional next to Landmand.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tim Martin

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2024, 03:27:56 PM »
FWIW, I'm a huge fan of the 18th at Yale which might be the biggest, baddest, boldest hole on the planet.   ;D
Mike,


Can you tell us what you like about the 18th at Yale and why you think it isn’t too big and bold?


Tim-I’m not looking to answer for Mike and hope he will give his take on 18 at Yale. First off it is definitely bold but that can be said for the entire design and in this case provides a crescendo not often rivaled on other courses. It offers plenty of options on the drive, second and third shots and there is no shortage of intrigue as to one’s fate as all three can potentially play blind. Finally if you are a fan of the first 17 holes and accept the site of the clubhouse then I can’t think of a more glorious finish. It’s polarizing because of its potential effect on the scorecard but is certainly not alone in that regard.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2024, 03:36:21 PM by Tim Martin »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2024, 05:55:23 PM »
For me, there's an upper bound on how big and bold a course can be.  If you can't walk it because it's too hilly or the holes are too far apart, then it's too much.


John,


I agree that is a reasonable definition. Ballybunion made changes to the original design of the Cashen mostly due to the difficulty of walking it. It was considered too much by many older members.
Tim Weiman

Tim_Weiman

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2024, 05:59:46 PM »
FWIW, I'm a huge fan of the 18th at Yale which might be the biggest, baddest, boldest hole on the planet.   ;D
Mike,


Can you tell us what you like about the 18th at Yale and why you think it isn’t too big and bold?


Tim-I’m not looking to answer for Mike and hope he will give his take on 18 at Yale. First off it is definitely bold but that can be said for the entire design and in this case provides a crescendo not often rivaled on other courses. It offers plenty of options on the drive, second and third shots and there is no shortage of intrigue as to one’s fate as all three can potentially play blind. Finally if you are a fan of the first 17 holes and accept the site of the clubhouse then I can’t think of a more glorious finish. It’s polarizing because of its potential effect on the scorecard but is certainly not alone in that regard.


Tim,


Thanks. My feelings about #18 are similar. If you navigate the first two shots up the hill well, I agree it is a glorious finish.
Tim Weiman

mike_malone

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2024, 06:11:51 PM »
I guess it is based on one’s experience but after playing my home course , Merion, and Pine Valley before Yale I never experienced 18 as bold. The first couple of shots are challenging but the shot to the green isn’t. This isn’t a criticism of Yale. It is one of my favorites and I believe creating width there will be a major improvement.
AKA Mayday

Tim Martin

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2024, 06:46:35 PM »
FWIW, I'm a huge fan of the 18th at Yale which might be the biggest, baddest, boldest hole on the planet.   ;D
Mike,


Can you tell us what you like about the 18th at Yale and why you think it isn’t too big and bold?


Tim-I’m not looking to answer for Mike and hope he will give his take on 18 at Yale. First off it is definitely bold but that can be said for the entire design and in this case provides a crescendo not often rivaled on other courses. It offers plenty of options on the drive, second and third shots and there is no shortage of intrigue as to one’s fate as all three can potentially play blind. Finally if you are a fan of the first 17 holes and accept the site of the clubhouse then I can’t think of a more glorious finish. It’s polarizing because of its potential effect on the scorecard but is certainly not alone in that regard.


Tim,


Thanks. My feelings about #18 are similar. If you navigate the first two shots up the hill well, I agree it is a glorious finish.


Tim-They have made some great strides on the hole already pre Hanse with drainage improvements in the drive zone, tree clearing and reclamation of sight lines up the right side as well as adding width to the lower fairway. The one feature that I never liked when in practice was the bank between the upper and lower fairway being allowed to grow unchallenged and balls that essentially split the two got stuck/lost. That shot should find it’s way down to the lower fairway which still may not guarantee a look at the green on the third.


Stewart Abramson

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2024, 07:38:58 PM »
For me, there's an upper bound on how big and bold a course can be.  If you can't walk it because it's too hilly or the holes are too far apart, then it's too much.


Isn't too hilly or holes too far apart more likely to be the result of a bad piece of land and/or a bad routing rather than the architect  going too big and bold?

Tim_Weiman

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Re: So, what is “too big, too bold and too manufactured”?
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2024, 08:02:08 PM »
For me, there's an upper bound on how big and bold a course can be.  If you can't walk it because it's too hilly or the holes are too far apart, then it's too much.


Isn't too hilly or holes too far apart more likely to be the result of a bad piece of land and/or a bad routing rather than the architect  going too big and bold?


Stewart,


That’s a good question and one that illustrates how complicated the entire issue can be.


Sticking with Yale’s 18th as an example, would we say the course is a bad piece of land or that a poor job was done on the routing?
Tim Weiman

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