[Jim Roth]

I went down a rabbit hole recently and spent some time looking at old aerials.  I stumbled upon the 1926 aerial of suffolk county NY and was looking at courses like rockaway hunt, piping rock, the creek, inwood etc and comparing them to today.  Whilst some of the routings are pretty much intact, none of the courses is presented today as it was originally.  (bunkers etc)    I'm curious, which courses (if any) out there are the most "intact".  (the new Lido does not count)  By intact I mean exactly as they were originally built.  (bunkers, routing, mowing lines)     My two home clubs, Rockaway Hunt and Woodway CC are very different than they were as originally laid out.  Rockaway acquired more land out on the water and the entire routing changed (for the better) with work done by tilly and Emmett. Woodway, the routing is largely intact with two holes having been alrered, ironically both b/c of club house expansion and movement  (one dramatically in 2001, on less so in 1936) The bunkering at woodway is consistnet, but still different to the point that only one hole on the course in bunkered EXACTLY the way Willie Park laid it out.  by my count there are 25+ more bunkers on the course today than in 1926 (oldest aerial i found)  I understand why this happens, but i'm curious..  which courses are TRULY like stepping back in time??

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:


Do you mean restored closest to the way they were?  Or intact (least touched)?


For restorations, I think Chicago Golf Club is probably the closest thing I’ve worked on, not counting tees.


For untouched, I’m not sure, but it wouldn’t be anywhere around NYC - there is too much money and too much perf pressure there.

[Jim Roth]

Since I live near NYC, I entirely agree.  Members and committee's cant help themselves. (I'm on a committee too! but I fight the good fight...       if they have money they spend it often to the detriment of the course as people push their individual agenda. 

for me i'm trying to find examples of clubs that never had the money to change, AND were content with what they had.  My guess is it might be "summer" or "second" club for people who were just there a few months (thus didnt want to spend the money)    Maybe up in maine, NH, upstate NY,  or northern michigan where they didn't need sub air,  USGA greens, billy bunkers.
Maybe the front nine at Thendara Golf Club?  CC of Troy? or maybe prouts neck?     

Personally id love to play a "100% true" representation of an architects original design.  especially if they spent signficant time there.   would it be the hardest?  no.   could it be improved?  maybe. but a good part of me is fascinated by the idea...

[Tim Martin]

Teugega which is a Donald Ross course in Rome NY would be a good example.

[Charlie Goerges]

How about Cypress Point? In aerials it looks very similar at several different points in time.

[Keith Williams]

Jim:


Do you mean restored closest to the way they were?  Or intact (least touched)?


For restorations, I think Chicago Golf Club is probably the closest thing I’ve worked on, not counting tees.


For untouched, I’m not sure, but it wouldn’t be anywhere around NYC - there is too much money and too much perf pressure there.

Tom,


Where would you place Holston Hills with respect to this topic?

[Jeff_Brauer]

The most untouched courses are probably low budget ones throughout the Midwest that don't have money to change.  I went through KS and OK once with Ron Whitten looking for sand green courses, and we actually found a few.  Similarly, I wonder if Perry Maxwell might have the most untouched holes. 


Or, it might be a guy like Floyd Farley, who built low budget, small town courses across the Midwest.  I only mention Floyd because his name has come up recently.  An older architect told me he was one mean guy, not well liked in ASGCA.  Also, I lost a job a few years back when the owner thought that a $600K, 1971 small town Farley design should be restored.  My reaction was, "Floyd Frickkin Farley?"  Needless to say, I didn't get that job.

[Rob Nydick]

Maybe not the exact example you were looking for, but this reminds me of the nine-hole course in Elk Rapids, Michigan.  Donald Ross designed a course for the town in the 1920's, but due to financial constraints the work was never finished beyond fairways and greens.  Nearly a century later, the original plans were found and Bruce Hepner completed construction in accordance with Ross's plans.  I was told that Hepner built exactly to Ross's plans, without taking liberties or adjusting distances for the modern game.  In theory, does this make Elk Rapids one of the most "intact" Ross designs out there (even though it took nearly a hundred years to finish)?

[Bret Lawrence]

The most authentic courses I have played include:
Chicago, Blue Mound, Fisher’s Island-Seth Raynor
Forsgate Country Club-Charles Banks

Shuttle Meadow Country Club-Willie Park Jr.
Country Club of Waterbury-Donald Ross
Torrington Country Club-Orrin Smith


They all look very similar to their early aerial counterparts.  Minor changes to greens and contours with most of the changes to the bunkering and teeing areas, if any changes were made at all!

[Tim Martin]

The most authentic courses I have played include:
Chicago, Blue Mound, Fisher’s Island-Seth Raynor
Forsgate Country Club-Charles Banks

Shuttle Meadow Country Club-Willie Park Jr.
Country Club of Waterbury-Donald Ross
Torrington Country Club-Orrin Smith


They all look very similar to their early aerial counterparts.  Minor changes to greens and contours with most of the changes to the bunkering and teeing areas, if any changes were made at all!

Bret-I know the Greens Chairman at Shuttle Meadow has taken painstaking efforts to keep everything as original as possible using an aerial photograph from around opening day as a guide. He is an ardent Willie Park Jr. fan having grown up playing another of his courses in lower Fairfield County.

[Jim Roth]

Bret could you put me in touch with him?  I am also a Willie park aficionado and would love to compare notes.   And is woodway that other wpjnr course is southern Fairfield county?   

[Tim Gavrich]

Allow me to nominate Grand Beach, a 9-hole Tom Bendelow loop in far SW Mich. that opened in 1912 and felt as though almost nothing in the way of design change had been done to it since.


I would be curious whether contemporary golf course architects who do end up redesigning/renovating the work of an established architect from a bygone era ever feel a tinge of ambivalence/melancholy about it. I grew up playing several Geoffrey Cornish courses and wonder whether on a long enough timeline, everything he ever did will be erased, and how the people who end up erasing his work will feel about it.


We may already know Jeff Brauer's thoughts on this, at least with regard to Floyd "Oklahoma Golf Hall-of-Famer" Farley.

[Matt Schoolfield]

By intact I mean exactly as they were originally built.

This gets back to my biggest eye-roll reaction in this community (no offense obviously).

The vast, vast majority of these courses are stimping at 12+ on the weekends, with tees moved back 100 yards. That is not “authentic” or “intact”.

It’s like golf’s version of a P.T. Cruiser: yea, it looks like a classic car, but it doesn’t drive like one, and it’s barely related to one under the surface.

My vote is about 9 of the holes at Sharp Park. If not that, then some course in rural Scotland or Ireland. They don’t have enough money to “fix” anything, and Sharp’s the only course here that stimps below 10, much less below 6. It’s very imperfect, but let’s not pretend that courses where the drainage was cut by horse are anything close to the surreal perfection of a CPC or CGC.

[Tim Martin]

By intact I mean exactly as they were originally built.

This gets back to my biggest eye-roll reaction in this community (no offense obviously).

The vast, vast majority of these courses are stimping at 12+ on the weekends, with tees moved back 100 yards. That is not “authentic” or “intact”.

It’s like golf’s version of a P.T. Cruiser: yea, it looks like a classic car, but it doesn’t drive like one, and it’s barely related to one under the surface.

My vote is about 9 of the holes at Sharp Park. If not that, then some course in rural Scotland or Ireland. They don’t have enough money to “fix” anything, and Sharp’s the only course here that stimps below 10, much less below 6. It’s very imperfect, but let’s not pretend that courses where the drainage was cut by horse are anything close to the surreal perfection of a CPC or CGC.

Matt-Green speeds are a function of setup to my way of thinking regardless of whether the course is “authentic” or “intact”. Provided that the original tee positions are an option then a new back set that increases the hole by 100 yards is also a function of setup.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Fair point then.

I would only then point out that green speeds and general set up dramatically affect how the course is played, which is why it’s such a bee in my bonnet. The slow-fast run of the Redan at Riv is a perfect example. The Kikuyu wouldn’t be such an issue if the greens actually slowed the ball.

[Tim Martin]

I would only then point out that green speeds and general set up dramatically affect how the course is played, which is why it’s such a bee in my bonnet.

Matt-I agree and understand your position.

[Bret Lawrence]

By intact I mean exactly as they were originally built.

This gets back to my biggest eye-roll reaction in this community (no offense obviously).

The vast, vast majority of these courses are stimping at 12+ on the weekends, with tees moved back 100 yards. That is not “authentic” or “intact”.

It’s like golf’s version of a P.T. Cruiser: yea, it looks like a classic car, but it doesn’t drive like one, and it’s barely related to one under the surface.

My vote is about 9 of the holes at Sharp Park. If not that, then some course in rural Scotland or Ireland. They don’t have enough money to “fix” anything, and Sharp’s the only course here that stimps below 10, much less below 6. It’s very imperfect, but let’s not pretend that courses where the drainage was cut by horse are anything close to the surreal perfection of a CPC or CGC.

Matt,


I didn’t get the sense that the thread was about the playability of the courses still being intact.  Jim was comparing aerials, which is very hard to gauge playability from. His question was about which courses we thought are most intact, when comparing the course to old photos and aerials? 


Considering none of us were around in 1928 for the Walker Cup at Chicago I don’t really know how it played vs. today but I can tell you that a lot of the features that were there in the earliest aerial or the Walker Cup map are still there today.  There are courses that have been tinkered with a little bit, some a lot, but the ones I listed above have been tinkered with the least (to my knowledge) and I thought Jim would like to take a look at them to compare. To me these courses are the most authentic.  They are not 100% authentic, but they are the best living examples of an original architects work that I have seen.


Bret

[Matt Schoolfield]

Jim was comparing aerials, which is very hard to gauge playability from. His question was about which courses we thought are most intact, when comparing the course to old photos and aerials? 

If that's the case, fair enough. I just read lines like this:

By intact I mean exactly as they were originally built.  (bunkers, routing, mowing lines)

and

which courses are TRULY like stepping back in time??

And I presume he means courses as they were experienced (i.e. played). Not courses as they looked from the air. Maybe I'm wrong.

[mike_beene]

You really can’t drive a Model T on an interstate.

[Bret Lawrence]

Jim was comparing aerials, which is very hard to gauge playability from. His question was about which courses we thought are most intact, when comparing the course to old photos and aerials? 

If that's the case, fair enough. I just read lines like this:

By intact I mean exactly as they were originally built.  (bunkers, routing, mowing lines)

and

which courses are TRULY like stepping back in time??

And I presume he means courses as they were experienced (i.e. played). Not courses as they looked from the air. Maybe I'm wrong.

Matt,


Have you looked at any examples I gave to Jim or are you just arguing your case about what authentic means?  This discussion is about what courses appear to be the most intact and look very close to the original. If it means playability too, then I think any of these courses could meet one of your criteria by not cutting the grass for a week.  Just because their greens are fast today doesn’t mean they have to be next week.  It would be easy for these courses to reach your definition of authentic more quickly and at no cost than just about any other course I have played. 


A few more examples would be Myopia Hunt Club.  I wouldn’t say it’s authentic or true to their original design , but visiting the grounds and golf course is TRULY like stepping back in time.  Hotchkiss School Golf Course is another example of a course that has been chopped up, but the original holes that remain have a lot of authenticity.  If you want to see what Raynor and Banks green contours look like, you will find a handful of great examples at Hotchkiss.  Hotchkiss also has the authentic green speed, if that’s what you’re after?


Bret

[Peter Bowman]

Shameless plug for Hooper here.  Though not 100% unchanged, it is very close.


The original tees have not been lengthened or changed. Some forward tees have been added to make the course friendlier to shorter hitters.


The greens are largely unchanged except shrunken over time, except for 2 greens. 3rd green has a steep backbone ridge down the middle, separating the left and right halves.  In the 70s the ridge was lowered by a foot as green speeds increased.  Similarly, left of 8 green had larger mounds lowered.  The playability of the greens was thus maintained to Stiles and can Kleek’s intentions


2 traps have been removed (one recently to my dismay on 6, and sometime ago a trap left of 8 protecting balls from rolling into the OB road was removed and replaced with mounding), and 4 have been added.

[SL_Solow]

Tom,  I really appreciate your mention of Chicago Golf and the work you did to renovate/preserve it.  A couple of others that come to mind are Lawsonia Links and Cape Breton Highlands at the Celtic Lodge

[Kalen Braley]

I would nominate Indian Canyon.  A few years back I did a deep dive on the aerials provided by HistoricalAericals.com and it was very close..

[Matthew Lloyd]

Maybe not the exact example you were looking for, but this reminds me of the nine-hole course in Elk Rapids, Michigan.  Donald Ross designed a course for the town in the 1920's, but due to financial constraints the work was never finished beyond fairways and greens.  Nearly a century later, the original plans were found and Bruce Hepner completed construction in accordance with Ross's plans.  I was told that Hepner built exactly to Ross's plans, without taking liberties or adjusting distances for the modern game.  In theory, does this make Elk Rapids one of the most "intact" Ross designs out there (even though it took nearly a hundred years to finish)?

Really fun course! The par 3 fifth is a very challenging hole.

[Steve_Roths]

St. Louis Country Club?

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