[Mark_Fine]

I think Brian makes a great point about a front pin location.  I don’t like that either and agree it takes away from the intent of the swale.  But I do like the idea of that area being green surface or at least very tightly mown grass similar to the way the Valley of Sin is kept.  Putting there is always an option. If it was rye/bluegrass fairway cut at half inch plus it wouldn’t be the same. 

[Philip Gordillo]

Another vote for swale in the middle of the green.  John Cavalier captured the essence of Metairie's Biarritz in the picture below.  Our members love the variety in setup.  Diagonal putts across the swale are difficult but fun!

https://twitter.com/LinksGems/status/1603254260476645376/photo/3

[Tom_Doak]

I learned something as the consensus seems to be that the swale was meant to be kept as fairway.  I honestly never realized that.  These days sometimes it’s hard to tell the fairway cut from the green surface.  My personal preference is for that swale to be green surface and even a portion of the approach in the front of that swale as I think it looks and plays great.

Whew . . . I was sweating it for a minute that you were going to go along with Raynor and Macdonald, and we'd have to agree on something here.


Besides going against whatever Mark says, and sticking with the way Macdonald and Raynor had it, my other reasons for opting not to extend the green:


1.  Expanding to the front and the swale is an enormous extra area of green to maintain, especially when the front portion of most Biarritz greens is almost never used for hole locations.  [Yale's is an exception, but on most others, they only use the front for ladies' day or for outings.] 


2.  At a lot of clubs, fairway cut is FIRMER than the greens, so you are more likely to be able to play the tee shot through the swale if the front plateau is fairway.


3.  Some of these greens are so big from front to back that having to putt from the front can be a sixty-yard putt, which is an awful golf shot for a lot of people.  I personally am very comfortable putting from that distance, but most people would rather have the option to pitch or chip or putt . . . and I'd rather have the option, too.

[Tim Martin]

I learned something as the consensus seems to be that the swale was meant to be kept as fairway.  I honestly never realized that.  These days sometimes it’s hard to tell the fairway cut from the green surface.  My personal preference is for that swale to be green surface and even a portion of the approach in the front of that swale as I think it looks and plays great.

Whew . . . I was sweating it for a minute that you were going to go along with Raynor and Macdonald, and we'd have to agree on something here.


Besides going against whatever Mark says, and sticking with the way Macdonald and Raynor had it, my other reasons for opting not to extend the green:


1.  Expanding to the front and the swale is an enormous extra area of green to maintain, especially when the front portion of most Biarritz greens is almost never used for hole locations.  [Yale's is an exception, but on most others, they only use the front for ladies' day or for outings.] 


2.  At a lot of clubs, fairway cut is FIRMER than the greens, so you are more likely to be able to play the tee shot through the swale if the front plateau is fairway.


3.  Some of these greens are so big from front to back that having to putt from the front can be a sixty-yard putt, which is an awful golf shot for a lot of people.  I personally am very comfortable putting from that distance, but most people would rather have the option to pitch or chip or putt . . . and I'd rather have the option, too.

Tom-Would you be in favor of going back to fairway height for the front portion at Yale or leaving as is? I don’t know what Hanse’s plan is for this feature. Thanks!

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Looks like you are in the minority again. I think the vote count is 5-3 for the swale being kept as green or at least very closely mown turf 


By the way, I looked at the photo in the Fried Egg article of the Mid Ocean Biarritz, talk about a contrived look with the ribbon fairway cut in the swale and in front    Looks silly to me but what do I know.  I guess the consulting architect likes that look.  Does anyone else here like that esthetic?

[Bret Lawrence]

Here is a picture of the original Biarritz at Mid-Ocean Club.  The caption says "Castle Harbour", but Castle Harbour's Biarritz was the 18th hole, hugging the Atlantic Ocean, with the clubhouse/hotel as the back drop.
Golf Illustrated., December 1932

Golf


Here is a description and a few older pictures of the 18th hole from Castle Harbour named: Biarritz.
Canadian Golfer., February 1932.


Grainy photo which is the earliest ground photo I have seen of the 18th at Castle Harbour.


Two photos of the 18th hole at Castle Harbour from 1965.
Noer/Milorganite Image Collection., May 1965. tic.msu.edu

[Donnie Beck]

Irrigation ruined the Biarritz!
Irrigation is the one aspect of the hole that no one talks about. When the hole was designed irrigation systems were very limited and the front was front was extremely firm and the ball release through the swale the way it was intended. As soon as irrigation systems became more popular the front got soft and the ball checked and did not release through the swale properly. I would assume this is the reason we see so many maintained as green today.
And for the record put my vote down in they should never be maintained as all green......... and definitely NEVER pinned in the front!

[Charlie Goerges]

Looks like we're about 5-4, slightly in favor of all green. It's getting close!

Edit for Colin's comment below, it's 5-5.

[Colin Sheehan]

The purist in me thinks Yale shouldn't have both sides of the swale as green, but the back half is difficult and it often causes a pace-of-play back-up--especially when the north-facing right hillside is full of soft and mushy moss and unkempt, lost-ball rough, weeds and mountain laurel. And the front half is an entirely different shot, so it does provide variety and drama of the forced carry over water with the swale as punishment for hedging too far.

The problem is, and many have said this, the pin has been on the front half about 90% of the time (if not more) the past 20 years. I always requested it in the back for the Punchbowl and other events--and we always used it for the Sunday round of the Macdonald Cup (the Yale fall invitational intercollegiate) and the Yale Spring Invitational. Unfortunately, not playing to the back pin denies a critical 220ish-shot that is otherwise in very short supply for many good players on that golf course.


If I have to choose, I prefer the green only on the back half the green...and if I was allowed one exception, I would consider it for Yale.

[Mark_Fine]

Donnie,
Great point about irrigation but I think you would agree, irrigation has changed the playability for more than just The Biarritz.  I don’t think any of us like playing to a firm green with a soft approach.  Actually I don’t think any of us like soft approaches period. 


I guess when I look at a Biarritz I tend to think of the entire perched fillpad as the green and when half of it is maintained one way and the other half another (see the Fried Egg photo of Mid Ocean Club’s Biarritz), it looks silly and contrived to me.  But as you point out, what is most important is how that front half plays.  If the swale and the front half are 1” long rye/bluegrass (fairway cut at many public golf courses), I don’t love it.  Then again, if the fairway is firm and transitions into the green with almost no discernible difference, that works for me. 


How are you maintaining the Biarritz at Fishers these days and what is the height of your fairway cut in front?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Has anyone found any writings from the day that truly praise the Biarritz?  The Redan, Eden, and others seem to have gotten great write ups.  I can't recall others praising the B as one of the great golf holes, and it seems to have fallen out of favor for copies compared to some other holes.

Am I missing it or did the B die a natural death after CBM protégés stopped using it?

[Donnie Beck]

"How are you maintaining the Biarritz at Fishers these days and what is the height of your fairway cut in front?"
[/size][/color]
[/size].275" approach with very little water.[/color]

[MLevesque]

My vote is for 1) never pinned on the front portion and 2) ideally only maintain the back portion as green. I was always so disappointed during my 100 or so rounds at Yale when the pin was up front, easily over 90% of the time. I’m looking forward to seeing how the 9th will be restored and superintendent Jeff Austin’s propensity to pin the back portion.

[Paul Jones]

Lookout Mountain, before and after the recent restoration, the 4th hole Biarritz is fairway cut leading up to swale.  I always try to land short and let it bounce up.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Has anyone found any writings from the day that truly praise the Biarritz?  The Redan, Eden, and others seem to have gotten great write ups.  I can't recall others praising the B as one of the great golf holes, and it seems to have fallen out of favor for copies compared to some other holes.

Am I missing it or did the B die a natural death after CBM protégés stopped using it?

I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that the Biarritz disappeared as ball flight trajectories got higher. The concept for the hole only really makes since when the launch angle creates a rollout of somewhere in the ballpark of 25% of the total distance.

Looking at Chicago GC's version I think is helpful because of it's fronting bunker. The distances from the start of the landing area to the center of the pinned green is about 80 yards. At 219 from the standard tees, that leaves about 35% of the total distance in the intended landing area. I do not think that is really a practical shot with today's launch angles. However, I do have a set of persimmons that would probably fit that trajectory with an old two-piece ball.

Anyway, I wrote a -- mostly silly -- thesis on how to bring back the Biarritz by increase the incentives for players to keep their launch angles lower on Biarritz holes: A High Shot Hazard: We can revive the excitement of the Biarritz template by fighting back against the modern launch angles that have dominated it. The idea is, effectively, using sleepers as hazards instead of sand to punish high trajectory shots more than lower trajectory shots. I would hope someone would build something like this, as I'd just like to see if the idea works.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Front half fairway for me because it’s easier to keep approaches firm than it is greens…. Additionally I’d love to see that gentle hogs-back more, so that a ball landing left approach feeds left and one landing right approach feeds right.


It does look more attractive when all green. But plays better when not.

[Sean_A]

If I was a member of Biarritz club I would definitely want both plateaux and swale cut as green. I don’t care about how the original was meant to be played so long as green complex isn’t altered.

Ciao

[Charlie Goerges]

Now it appears it's 6-7 with the consensus toward maintaining the front and/or front and swale as fairway (hard to tell exactly based on phrasing).


Is there any example where the the back and swale are green and the front only is fairway?

[Bret Lawrence]

Charlie,


I’m not sure if you are counting my vote in Reply #7, but I prefer the original setup (with fairway in front and only the back portion green). I like putting on the large Biarritz as much as the next guy, but after the third putt on a Par 3, the fun starts to wane a little.  Some putts from the front of Yales Biarritz to the back can actually catch air and nosedive into the upslope of the back portion sending your ball to the darkness of the trench. It makes me think that the green wasn’t designed for such a shot and these are the positions I wish I could chip from at Yale. 


I’m not aware of any Biarritz with just the swale and back portion cut as green, but I think Paul mentioned above that Lookout Mountains 4th hole may be setup this way?  Country Club of Fairfield is the only Biarritz I know that is maintained as all fairway and they don’t pin the front or the back, it just sits idle in the middle of the 10th fairway.  What a shame!

Here is a photo of Anthony Pioppi in the swale at CC of Fairfield, from earlier this year.




Bret

[Charlie Goerges]

Charlie,

I’m not sure if you are counting my vote in Reply #7, but I prefer the original setup (with fairway in front and only the back portion green).

I hadn't been, so now we're up to 6-8 with 8 in favor of only the back being green.

[Mark_Fine]

Thanks Donnie.  That is a tight cut and I am sure you keep that area as firm as possible.  For comparison, we keep our bent grass approaches at Lehigh CC at .375 and fairways at .4”.  They are firm but I am sure watered more than yours as our club likes bright green grass

Brett,
Wouldn’t you agree that chipping off firm fairway cut at .275 like Donnie is keeping his is not too much different than chipping off a green surface as golfers sometimes have to do at #6 at Rivieria when they are on the wrong side of the center green bunker?  When fairway is cut that tight and kept firm it is essentially like the green itself.  I recently played Oakmont and on some holes you have to look really close to see where the approach ends and the green starts. 

Back when these Biarritz fillpads were originally built, was the different cut of the approach/fairway grass to start in the middle of the swale, halfway up the swale, at the top of the swale, just beyond the swale,… ?  Again, splitting the maintenance of that fillpad in two that might have been the original design but I personally don’t care for the look of the two cuts of grass.  I point to Mid Ocean today as one example. If it is kept like Donnie keeps his, it is probably ideal - less “green surface” to maintain but it looks and plays like a very large green allowing golfers all shot options.  He just never pins in front or not in the swale. 

[Bret Lawrence]

Front half fairway for me because it’s easier to keep approaches firm than it is greens…. Additionally I’d love to see that gentle hogs-back more, so that a ball landing left approach feeds left and one landing right approach feeds right.


It does look more attractive when all green. But plays better when not.

Ally,


Sometimes I get the impression that the front of the Biarritz was set up as the profile of the hog, rather than playing down the hog's spine.  In this early aerial below of The Everglades Club you can see how the front of the approach is at grade and the swale is just about at grade.  To me, it looks more like a hog's back from the side rather than standing over a hog and looking down their back.  I'm not trying to say all Biarritz were setup this way.  Some send balls off to the right and left the farther the tee shots drifted in that direction.  Some Biarritz approaches do have spines running parallel to the line of play while others did not.  I just think it's important to recognize that there are two ways to play over a hog's back and sometimes we only focus on one.


Low altitutde aerial of the 9th hole at The Everglades Club:

The Everglades Club., Circa 1920
Here is the same hole from an odd angle. At first, it's hard to tell it's a Biarritz.

Library of Congress., 1921.
Don't laugh at me, but back in 2020 during Covid I got bored and decided I would buy some plasticene and try to make a model of a Biarritz.  I am not a clay artist nor am I a golf course architect, but I was amazed how easy the substance was to work with.  Here is my model.  I thought some of you on here may get a kick out of it.  I changed it to black and white to give it that old feel.




Bret

[Tim Martin]

Front half fairway for me because it’s easier to keep approaches firm than it is greens…. Additionally I’d love to see that gentle hogs-back more, so that a ball landing left approach feeds left and one landing right approach feeds right.


It does look more attractive when all green. But plays better when not.

Ally,


Sometimes I get the impression that the front of the Biarritz was set up as the profile of the hog, rather than playing down the hog's spine.  In this early aerial below of The Everglades Club you can see how the front of the approach is at grade and the swale is just about at grade.  To me, it looks more like a hog's back from the side rather than standing over a hog and looking down their back.  I'm not trying to say all Biarritz were setup this way.  Some send balls off to the right and left the farther the tee shots drifted in that direction.  Some Biarritz approaches do have spines running parallel to the line of play while others did not.  I just think it's important to recognize that there are two ways to play over a hog's back and sometimes we only focus on one.


Low altitutde aerial of the 9th hole at The Everglades Club:


Here is the same hole from an odd angle, at first it's hard to tell its a Biarritz.


Don't laugh at me, but back in 2020 during Covid I got bored and decided I would buy some plasticene and try to make a model of a Biarritz.  I am not a clay artist nor am I a golf course architect, but I was amazed how easy the substance was to work with.  Here is my model.  I thought some of you on here may get a kick out of it.  I changed it to black and white to give it that old feel.


Bret

Bret-Great stuff!!! I love the clay model.

[Bret Lawrence]

Thanks Donnie.  That is a tight cut and I am sure you keep that area as firm as possible.  For comparison, we keep our bent grass approaches at Lehigh CC at .375 and fairways at .4”.  They are firm but I am sure watered more than yours as our club likes bright green grass

Brett,
Wouldn’t you agree that chipping off firm fairway cut at .275 like Donnie is keeping his is not too much different than chipping off a green surface as golfers sometimes have to do at #6 at Rivieria when they are on the wrong side of the center green bunker?  When fairway is cut that tight and kept firm it is essentially like the green itself.  I recently played Oakmont and on some holes you have to look really close to see where the approach ends and the green starts. 

Mark,

I agree that many of the approaches on these courses with original Biarritz are maintained in top-notch fashion.  I am not looking to hit a flop shot over the trench, I want to watch it run through the swale, maybe disappear and reappear, which adds excitement to the shot.  At Yale, I would prefer to hit a pitch and run, maybe something I can carry to the downslope of the swale and it will pick up enough speed travelling down the swale to get over the very steep upslope.  I would use anything from a 6 iron to a 9-iron, with a stroke similar to putting.  The reason I don't do that now is because it's maintained as green and most superintendents don't like you taking divots out of their green.  I respect that and feel forced to pull the flat stick when it may not be the best selection.  Bottom line for me is that all-green surface gives options to the superintendent.  The original setup gives the options back to the golfer. 

Bret

[Mike Nuzzo]

Charlie,

I’m not sure if you are counting my vote in Reply #7, but I prefer the original setup (with fairway in front and only the back portion green).

I hadn't been, so now we're up to 6-8 with 8 in favor of only the back being green.

7-8
Having a hole location just in front of a big swale sounds fun to me.
As long as the club can afford the extra green space and will keep it firm enough for Mr. Beck.

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