[Mark_Fine]

Just had the pleasure of playing Yeamans Hall.  What a special golf course.  Undoubtedly one of Raynor's best. 


Question for the group about The Biarritz; how many of the Macdonald/Raynor originals out there have the swale maintained as fairway cut vs as green surfac?.  Also, does anyone know how the original Biarritz in France was maintained. Macdonald apparently wanted the swale fairway cut and not maintained as green surface.  Comments?

[mike_malone]

If it’s fairway cut is it a  Biarritz green? It seems the swale is its signature.

[Ira Fishman]

Even in my limited time on here, there have been numerous threads about this topic. If the search function were not horrible, I would find them, but Mark, you are the historian so I am sure that you could provide the answer.


Ira

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The Fried Egg did a nice picturesque view of many :


https://thefriedegg.com/biarritz-template-hole/

[Mark_Fine]

I had always understood (or at least believed) that the swale was cut as green although sometimes the front portion was cut at fairway height.  I honestly don't know the correct answer of what was intended.  Apparently there is some debate.  I will look at that Fried Egg podcast and do some searching when I am back to my office. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

There is one particular great thread about the original in France… my favourite in all GCA.


Anyway, the actual concept has the front portion as a hogsback then swale (both fairway height) followed by green at the back.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Question for the group about The Biarritz; how many of the Macdonald/Raynor originals out there have the swale maintained as fairway cut vs as green surfac?.  Also, does anyone know how the original Biarritz in France was maintained. Macdonald apparently wanted the swale fairway cut and not maintained as green surface.  Comments?

I guess I'm just not sure whether "fairway cut" vs "green" means the same thing today as it would have meant in 1911 at the Piping Rock Club, much less at the La Phare course in 1888.

I would presume the cuts would be effectively the same, if not mostly similar, with regards to rollout back then.

[Bret Lawrence]

Mark,


 I think part of the mystery of the Biarritz hole in France is that no one actually knows what the original hole looked like.  Macdonald tells us it was suggested by the 12th hole at Biarritz, but what did that look like?…. And no, it wasn’t the Famous Chasm hole, like we’ve been led to believe. The famous Chasm hole was long gone by the time Macdonald visited in 1906.


With very little info on the original hole, we should be looking at what Macdonald and Raynor drew on paper or implemented in the ground.  After all, the Biarritz may be closer to a Macdonald original concept than the original hole we are searching for? I’ve seen many Raynor designs on paper and many early aerials of Macdonald and Raynor courses. One thing they have in common is that the approach of the Biarritz is generally longer than the green. The green was generally the back portion, while the swale and front section were to be maintained at approach height. In some of these old aerials, the definition of grass types was very easy to see, while in others it was a little harder to see.  Courses under construction such as Deepdale or Oneck, you can see the green growing in while the approach and swale are still in dirt or just starting to grow in. I think it would be safe to say the original intent was  to have the back portion as green with the approach and swale mowed at approach or fairway height.


That’s not to say every Biarritz green they ever built followed this original intent.  Some holes they named Biarritz had swales, other holes they named Biarritz didn’t have swales. Some may have had more green while others had more approach? As we know by know, modifications were made on a site-by-site basis, therefore not all Biarritz were created equal. One thing they did have in common however: They were short holes designed to test a long accurate shot, generally in the 220-yard range.  The 220-yard distance is another hint that just the rear portion of the Biarritz complex was intended to be green.


I personally like all the different variations the Biarritz complex creates for todays game. Some of the more subtle versions like Westhampton or Greenbrier seem better fitted for all putting surface, while the rugged versions seem more suited for the approach/green combo.   I believe you can still find original versions at Blue Mound, Chicago and Fishers Island, maybe Mid-Ocean? For sentimental reasons I have always loved the giant putting surface at Yale and that was the first Biarritz I ever got to play, but there are times I wish I could chip it.


Bret

[Mark_Fine]

Thanks Bret. Very helpful. I naively assumed for some reason that most of the swales were maintained at green height.  Obviously Yale’s is and I am pretty sure Fisher’s is.  Maybe that Fried Egg podcast states which ones are vs are not.  I have not had time to look.

[Paul Rudovsky]

My thoughts on this question have been very heavily influenced by a photo of Yale's #9 that hangs in the men's locker room at Royal Cinque Ports (I saw it there in 2018).  There is (or at least was in 2018) a notation next to the photo that says it was taken on Yale's opening day.  It is very very obvious from that photo that Yale's #9 was fairway height in front and in the swale...you could tell from the mowing pattern which was very different for the "front/swale" and the "back" portions.  Around that time I emailed Colin Sheehan and he confirmed that to his knowledge the front and swale of #9 were originally cut at fairway height.


I have no "proof" but I have a strong sense that all of the CBM and Raynor Biarritz's were originally fairway height for front/swale.  I gather the original hole (which was destroyed by WWII bombing) had an "inlet" from the Atlantic Ocean followed by a short uphill to a green...something like the 15th at Cypress Point, but with no bunkers across the front of the green.  My guess is that CBM loved the concept but later realized there would be very few opportunities for this configuration naturally, and came up with the swale (or "Valley of Sin") to simulate the "inlet".  That would dictate having fairway height for the "front/swale" portion.   


My guess is that either Raynor or Banks built one Biarritz with all three portions at green height and others liked the concept and did what should have been an easy renovation.


However, even as old as I am, this is well before my time...and aside from the photo at RCP....I have no other evidence for this theory.

[Bryan Izatt]

Here's a link to the extensive discussion about the Biarritz from more than ten years ago.  You might need to get "photobucket hotlink fix" extension, at least in Chrome, to see the Photobucket pictures.  There was no conclusion regarding whether the front was maintained as fairway or green on the Biarritz course as far as I recall.  CBM took some concepts from Biarritz and created his own interpretation most likely.


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21926.0.html

[Bret Lawrence]

Thanks Bret. Very helpful. I naively assumed for some reason that most of the swales were maintained at green height.  Obviously Yale’s is and I am pretty sure Fisher’s is.  Maybe that Fried Egg podcast states which ones are vs are not.  I have not had time to look.

Mark,


Happy to help.  I am including the description of the 9th hole at Yale from the Yale Alumni Weekly, published on August 28, 1925. As you can see from the description, the swale or trench is part of the approach.  I don't really want to get into a debate about what the hole looked like on opening day, but the description paints a clear picture of the original intent or design of the hole.


I am also including two pictures of Fishers Island-November 2022.  The second picture was taken from the rear portion of the Biarritz and you can (sort of) see the mow lines and differentiation between the approach and swale vs. the green.





Bret

[Colin Sheehan]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/qRBi168Ckck6kD6A6


Here's what it looked like on opening day.


It is obvious from the measurements of the earliest scorecards of Macdonald/Raynor courses that Biarritz holes were only from the swale to the back. One of the ways the hole was expected to play was to chase a trundling ball through the valley of sin onto the green.


 

[Jeff Schley]

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,68962.0.html
Here is a catalog compiled by the board.

[Tom_Doak]

There is no definitive proof, but if you look at the 1926 Nassau County aerial photo that includes Piping Rock, The Creek, The Links, and The Lido -- most of them only a few years old -- the front plateau and the swale are mowed at fairway height.


Also, Raynor put cinders on the floor of his green wells, and there were no cinders under the front pad on the Biarritz greens we've dug up.  [Camargo for one]

[/size]
When I started my tours of these courses in 1980, the only Biarritz greens that had green in the front were Yale and St. Louis CC.  Lots of them have been "restored" in recent years, probably erroneously.[/size][size=78%] [/size]

[Charlie Goerges]

For anyone who's played a Biarritz...do you prefer the front and swale as green or fairway cut? (regardless of how it was originally intended)

[Tim_Weiman]

For anyone who's played a Biarritz...do you prefer the front and swale as green or fairway cut? (regardless of how it was originally intended)

Charlie,


Not long ago I played the Biarritz at Mountain Lake. The front, swale and back were green height.


My tee shot was short. The pin was near the back.


The putt was a lot of fun.

[Doug Bolls]

I have only played a handfull of them including Yale and Bandon Old MacDonald - to me they are all an exhilarating putting experience.  Putting through the valley to get to a pin just puts a smile on my face.
I like the entire green at putting height.

[Tommy Williamsen]

For anyone who's played a Biarritz...do you prefer the front and swale as green or fairway cut? (regardless of how it was originally intended)

I generally prefer the front fairway height. It gives me options to chip, flop, or putt.

[Paul Rudovsky]

For anyone who's played a Biarritz...do you prefer the front and swale as green or fairway cut? (regardless of how it was originally intended)

For what it is worth, I think there are two questions that we should as a group try to answer:

(1)Charlie's question above...which format do each of us prefer?, and
(2) we someone should add the courses mentioned in 2020 on the prior thread and add them to create a "full " list of all the par 3 Biarritz's in the world (perhaps limiting it to courses originally built before WW II...as later courses might have been influenced by courses that had ben influemnced by changed holes)..then we should all look at the list and for the holes we have played (and remember...which may be the bigger issue) indicate if the front and swale are fairway to green height (as of the last time we played them).

I sense there is strong evidence that most if not all of Raynor's were fairway height for front/swale.  Be interesting to see if we can figure it out analytically

BTW regarding quest #1---I prefer the green height for front/swale.back...as I love the amazing putts you are sometimes forced to play when your ball in in front/right and the pin in back/left or vice versa (there are I guess at least 3 versions of vice versa...too tired right now to figure that out)

[Mark_Fine]

I learned something as the consensus seems to be that the swale was meant to be kept as fairway.  I honestly never realized that.  These days sometimes it’s hard to tell the fairway cut from the green surface.  My personal preference is for that swale to be green surface and even a portion of the approach in the front of that swale as I think it looks and plays great. 

[Tim Martin]

I’m interested to see what’s in store for the 9th green at Yale as a result of the Gil Hanse restoration and if the front section is returned to fairway height.

[Charlie Goerges]

I learned something as the consensus seems to be that the swale was meant to be kept as fairway.  I honestly never realized that.  These days sometimes it’s hard to tell the fairway cut from the green surface.  My personal preference is for that swale to be green surface and even a portion of the approach in the front of that swale as I think it looks and plays great.

It's funny that it seems that the swale and front generally were meant to be fairway, but counting you, we're up to 4-1 preference for maintain both as green.

[Brian Finn]

I prefer the front to be fairway cut, as it assures the hole location will be on the back section.  I really dislike when the hole is cut on the front of a full biarritz green.  I believe it eliminates the primary way these holes were meant to be played.  I also prefer having the option to hit a bump and run off the fairway cut, although at many courses (particularly large budget courses, of which most Raynor / CBM are) the fairways are cut so tight that they are more conducive to putting anyway. 

[Adam Lawrence]

I remember when I spent a day with Bill Coore on site during the build of Streamsong Red. We got to the sixteenth hole. Jimbo Wright was shaping the green, and I thought it had the potential to be one of the most dramatic one shotters in the world. A couple of years later, I went back to play the course with some UK greenkeeper friends and was utterly distraught to find the pin right at the front. The only consolation was that my pal David Langheim MG hit his tee shot into the sandy bank above the lake at the front. Dave doesn’t lose many balls, and he wasn’t about to abandon this one, which he could see from the top. He didn’t care that there was a large alligator on the edge of the water!

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