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Ryan Coles

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Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2024, 06:31:53 PM »
Ditches certainly help, but after their initial benefit of catching surface run off, unless piped outfalls, their benefits are often over stated and they can be a convenient stick to beat greenkeepers with. ‘The course is wet but the ditches are dry’ as if the water will magically seep sideways continually through heavy clay. It just doesn’t, otherwise it would be backed up further up the ditch, hence 5m spacing of drainage backed up with secondary banding as Marty describes. 


Agree on trees though. And some trees worse than others for roots chasing down pipes.


Alistair Beggs of R&A wrote a great article recently on vegetation and clubs effectively pissing into the wind without tackling that first in terms of drying out turf. 

Sean_A

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Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2024, 07:19:52 PM »
Too much worrying about the worst conditions. The focus should be on what decent drainage can achieve rather than what it can’t achieve. That’s when a proper cost benefit analysis can be run. Improvement is possible if clubs want to prioritise improved playing conditions.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2024, 08:17:51 PM »
Ditches certainly help, but after their initial benefit of catching surface run off, unless piped outfalls, their benefits are often over stated and they can be a convenient stick to beat greenkeepers with. ‘The course is wet but the ditches are dry’ as if the water will magically seep sideways continually through heavy clay. It just doesn’t, otherwise it would be backed up further up the ditch, hence 5m spacing of drainage backed up with secondary banding as Marty describes. 
Agree on trees though. And some trees worse than others for roots chasing down pipes.
Alistair Beggs of R&A wrote a great article recently on vegetation and clubs effectively pissing into the wind without tackling that first in terms of drying out turf.


Ryan,
Thanks for this.
Do you happen to have a link to AB’s piece. Keen to read it.
Atb

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2024, 10:21:40 PM »
Ditches certainly help, but after their initial benefit of catching surface run off, unless piped outfalls, their benefits are often over stated and they can be a convenient stick to beat greenkeepers with. ‘The course is wet but the ditches are dry’ as if the water will magically seep sideways continually through heavy clay. It just doesn’t, otherwise it would be backed up further up the ditch, hence 5m spacing of drainage backed up with secondary banding as Marty describes. 
Agree on trees though. And some trees worse than others for roots chasing down pipes.
Alistair Beggs of R&A wrote a great article recently on vegetation and clubs effectively pissing into the wind without tackling that first in terms of drying out turf.


Ryan,
Thanks for this.
Do you happen to have a link to AB’s piece. Keen to read it.
Atb


Courtesy of the Golf Club Secretary Magazine: [size=78%]https://knowle.intelligentgolf.co.uk/uploads/knowle/File/RA%20-%20Article%20on%20Golf%20Courses%20and%20Agronomy.pdf[/size]

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2024, 10:32:51 PM »
Too much worrying about the worst conditions. The focus should be on what decent drainage can achieve rather than what it can’t achieve. That’s when a proper cost benefit analysis can be run. Improvement is possible if clubs want to prioritise improved playing conditions.

Ciao


Of course. But a balanced analysis should cover what it can’t as well as what it can. It only comes up for discussion, as with this thread, in the context of the extremes and course closures.


One poster highlighted the so called folly of draining greens and bunkers, when in winter, it’s too wet to get to them. Again, as you say ignoring the many other agronomic and labour saving benefits.


‘They spent money on something else when here we are and the course is closed in January’ is like berating a family for having a weeks holiday in Spain before they’ve saved up enough to send the kids to Eton.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2024, 02:25:46 AM »
Courtesy of the Golf Club Secretary Magazine: [size=78%]https://knowle.intelligentgolf.co.uk/uploads/knowle/File/RA%20-%20Article%20on%20Golf%20Courses%20and%20Agronomy.pdf[/size]
Many thanks Ryan. It’s a fine and insightful piece.
Atb

Simon Barrington

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Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2024, 02:17:59 PM »
Too much worrying about the worst conditions. The focus should be on what decent drainage can achieve rather than what it can’t achieve. That’s when a proper cost benefit analysis can be run. Improvement is possible if clubs want to prioritise improved playing conditions.
Ciao
Of course. But a balanced analysis should cover what it can’t as well as what it can. It only comes up for discussion, as with this thread, in the context of the extremes and course closures.

One poster highlighted the so called folly of draining greens and bunkers, when in winter, it’s too wet to get to them. Again, as you say ignoring the many other agronomic and labour saving benefits.

‘They spent money on something else when here we are and the course is closed in January’ is like berating a family for having a weeks holiday in Spain before they’ve saved up enough to send the kids to Eton.

It is about priorities in decision making and communication with members, always, and some clubs do a very good job of one and/or both.
But some do not.

Of course drainage work and refurbishment of bunkers should both occur on a continual rolling basis.

It's just that we rarely, if ever, see a social media post or website proudly boasting of any £500k-£1mln "Drainage Scheme", but there are lots of "Bunker Refurbishment Schemes" or "Course Improvement Plans" that do get that profile. Which leads to peer pressure from neighbouring clubs, even if they should be favouring any possible capital project on drainage (including of course drainage in bunkers) or something else (Clubhouse extension to get longer-term revenue, practice facilities/range etc.)

There has been an large unexpected and welcome flow of cash into clubs over the last 2-3 years, and I just think that the one-off opportunity to invest may have been far better targetted by some clubs than it has.
I have thought that for some time, not just because it has been very wet.

Too many have focused too much on putting in the most expensive bunkers possible, but that suits the architect and supplier ecosystem.
The legacy of which may not be as positive as sold. There are far more educated people than I saying the same in regard to rubber-crumb etc. (Bradley Klein for one).

The club mentioned earlier that focuses on getting some (reduced) playability in tough circumstances, clearly have educated their members that this time of year things may not be at all perfect but we'll get on with it within our capabilities and finances, and you go out and enjoy your game/walk if you wish. They have had closure days in these extremes (presumably for both safety and agronomic reasons) but many fewer than neighbouring clubs. That is to be applauded I think.

At the end of the day the numbers of golfers who actually want to go out in such desperately soggy conditions is really very small, and I liked that they found a way to let them play, by focusing on drainage work over the long-term and taking a practical approach on the day.

Our old Secretary, when I was growing up, simply said "the course closes itself", and that is largely true (but we live in different times when member expectations for year-round golf, and H&S considerations, are much higher)

I saw recently that instead of using temporary greens Little Aston GC uses a flag stuck in a log or "Flog" which can be moved absolutely anywhere on the course to hit at, presumably then steering players away from wetter areas to give them a fun target challenge during their walk/exercise/"golf' or "Flog". I like the creativity and fun of that, in what is for most (and should be for more) the "off-season".

Brollies up, let's play...Flog!
« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 01:58:17 AM by Simon Barrington »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2024, 04:57:25 PM »
There is much discussion herein about course architecture and other golfy matters but not as much as there probably should be about the ongoing maintenance practices clubs adopt and how these are sometimes adversely affected by other issues around the club or by the game in general. Those ‘in the business’ and the unpaid who have been actively involved in the running of a club have knowledge of the importance of such matters so it’s been nice to read the comments by Simon, Ryan and Marty.
Atb

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #33 on: February 29, 2024, 07:47:49 AM »
Simon


I agree with much of what you say, but I would be wary of confusing instagram and press releases with the reality of what is happening on the ground. Bunkers etc are always more photogenic. Drainage or intensive aeration work is frankly a mess on completion hence you don't see it in the shiny photos. All the main drainage contractors in the UK have never been busier. By nature at circa £100-£150k a fairway at the spacing highlighted by Marty, a million quid investment will take 10 years, as Club's can only really tick off one or two holes a year and still function and retain a membership. P.S. Most run of the mill UK Club's are doing well to generate £100-£200k in cash per annum (profit before depreciation), which after machinery renewals doesn't leave a whole lot of resource for million quid projects, or servicing the debt of doing the same. Some of course benefitted more than others from the Covid boom, but even those that did, a good proportion merely repaired the balance sheet and paid off debts / reduced overdrafts. This is a site largely about the elite end of golf which we all aspire to, I guess I'm just trying to give a perspective at a more grass roots level, which 90% plus of clubs and golfers are at.




Re: Closing the course, they do not close themselves. You could get 20mm rain overnight and on a sunny winter day the course would be packed the next morning. All come into the pro-shop after 9 holes and say the course is too wet and shouldn't be open....before proceeding back out to play the back 9! Most towns and cities have a counter factual of a course that isn't closed regardless of rainfall and the conditions generally suffer in the playing season by comparison.

Simon Barrington

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #34 on: February 29, 2024, 11:14:41 AM »
Simon
I agree with much of what you say, but I would be wary of confusing instagram and press releases with the reality of what is happening on the ground. Bunkers etc are always more photogenic. Drainage or intensive aeration work is frankly a mess on completion hence you don't see it in the shiny photos. All the main drainage contractors in the UK have never been busier. By nature at circa £100-£150k a fairway at the spacing highlighted by Marty, a million quid investment will take 10 years, as Club's can only really tick off one or two holes a year and still function and retain a membership. P.S. Most run of the mill UK Club's are doing well to generate £100-£200k in cash per annum (profit before depreciation), which after machinery renewals doesn't leave a whole lot of resource for million quid projects, or servicing the debt of doing the same. Some of course benefitted more than others from the Covid boom, but even those that did, a good proportion merely repaired the balance sheet and paid off debts / reduced overdrafts. This is a site largely about the elite end of golf which we all aspire to, I guess I'm just trying to give a perspective at a more grass roots level, which 90% plus of clubs and golfers are at.

Re: Closing the course, they do not close themselves. You could get 20mm rain overnight and on a sunny winter day the course would be packed the next morning. All come into the pro-shop after 9 holes and say the course is too wet and shouldn't be open....before proceeding back out to play the back 9! Most towns and cities have a counter factual of a course that isn't closed regardless of rainfall and the conditions generally suffer in the playing season by comparison.
Thanks.
We agree on a great deal and note that your club have been doing what we are agreed about.
That being planning well and spending on drainage, also posting it on SM educating members and setting a very good example.

Knowle GC are a rarity in that, and both they and you should be applauded for doing so:
        (https://x.com/KnowleGolfClub/status/1715040990094926121?s=20)

Sadly, I see so much of the opposite, and am not confused or unrealistic (concur with the point re. attractiveness of images of white shiny bunkers vs. muddy drainage work etc. But, that re-inforces the points made)

One of the previous examples, was the pushing back of similar Hydrowick Drainage work for 3 "wet" greens by a Green Committee, in order to then propose an architecturally-damaging wholesale redesign across the whole (heritage) course for c.11x the spend!
The proposal included a reduction of bunkers in number by c.40%. The "modernised" wiggly design palette actually; increased the area of sand in total, changed them to splashed faces, and created an exponential increase in bunker edging.
All of which would increase both maintenance burden and costs going forward every year. Nevermind that rubber-crumb was involved despite its high initial cost. This was the complete opposite of the brief. So a real world example of genuinely poor decision making by a club (& architect). Drainage was not even mentioned in the proposal.

The historic comment on closures was for context as to how much things have changed, and I think the bracketed comments are actually in line with your last point.

Keep up the good work down there, and may dryer times be on the horizon for us all!
BTW - I do think not enough is made of J.H. Taylor's course design work in general, perhaps one for another thread?
Cheers!
« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 11:20:04 AM by Simon Barrington »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #35 on: February 29, 2024, 06:16:38 PM »
Can think of a course that spend loads of money on redoing their bunkering yet haven’t done any drainage work on their near 100 year old push-up clay based greens. Irrigate them though so nice and soft and thatchy.
Cart before the horse?
Atb

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2024, 07:59:03 AM »
I suppose there are golfers out there who wear Pringle jumpers and drive Jags but by and large golfers don't conform to that lazy outdated stereotype and you might argue in a lot of places never have. I wonder if it is the same with the idea that there are all these golf clubs out there wasting money on frilly edged bunkers when their fairways are strewn with puddles ?


FWIW my perception is that course changes/work is usually initiated by the greenkeeper seeking to deal with some problem or other, and the solution put forward is generally the most pragmatic and cost effective but would be interested to hear of specific instances where that is not the case.


Niall 

Adam Lawrence

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Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2024, 08:22:51 AM »
I have a Jag, but the only Pringles I own are socks  :)
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Richard Fisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2024, 05:04:58 AM »
Robin will be pleased to know that i am sitting in the window of our flat looking down the 1st fairway at RSD, and after a few dry days there are plenty of golfers going out this morning. Not sure if they are yet playing the whole course, but more dryish weather is forecast for this week. The dramatic photos of a fortnight ago also reflected the impact of a number of very high tides, as well as the vv wet winter weather. What is above ground at Harlech looks in super nick.

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2024, 10:14:14 AM »
Richard


I am indeed delighted to hear that!


If you're in town I'll come and say hello.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2024, 11:19:31 AM »

BTW - I do think not enough is made of J.H. Taylor's course design work in general, perhaps one for another thread?
Cheers!



Taylor was at heart a believer in penal architecture. He was very hostile to the amateur architects like Colt and Fowler, believing that laying out courses was part of the professional's job function. He tried on a number of occasions to get a movement going to have architecture judged as incompatible with amateur status, and had a huge hissy fit when the Eden opened in 1919 -- Colt took quite a lot of heat about it, essentially at Taylor's hands.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2024, 12:54:11 PM »
Adam


I don't doubt that John Henry took the opportunity to fight the corner of his fellow professionals but I wonder if there wasn't an element of poking the bear with Colt. I might have a dodgy memory but was Colt not part of the R&A committee with fellow amateurs such as Hilton who decided on the definition of amateur which concluded that an amateur could earn a living writing about golf and possibly designing courses ?


Anyway, Taylor certainly seemed to like a good cross hazard.


Niall

Simon Barrington

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2024, 02:13:17 PM »

BTW - I do think not enough is made of J.H. Taylor's course design work in general, perhaps one for another thread?
Cheers!

Taylor was at heart a believer in penal architecture. He was very hostile to the amateur architects like Colt and Fowler, believing that laying out courses was part of the professional's job function. He tried on a number of occasions to get a movement going to have architecture judged as incompatible with amateur status, and had a huge hissy fit when the Eden opened in 1919 -- Colt took quite a lot of heat about it, essentially at Taylor's hands.
Thanks Adam, I had heard of that spat and it seemed to be a time of strong jostling for position, inflated rhetoric and professional assertion of power on both sides.
Taylor leading the creation of the PGA, Colt a leader of the Amateurs trying to "professionalise" the Art as well as legislate the game up at the R&A.

JHT was seemingly quite strident from what is written, a (self-educated) man with strong views.
(He'd do great on this forum I think! Niall C would love it!  ;D )

In terms of design he evolved, but perhaps not as fast as others?

The cross-bunker debate was/is a perennial one.
Hutchinson was supportive, to a point; but too much of anything can become stale and out of favour over time, to paraphrase Horace. Of course they had a strong bond right from when JHT was a young man at RND/Westward Ho!.

I always enjoyed playing Royal Mid Surrey "Outer" (now the "JH Taylor") in "The Antlers Foursomes", where the "Alpinisation" mounds he did with Peter Lees (of Lido fame) were both lauded and vilified.
These were considered both strategic (the further off-line the greater the penalty) or penal (if flanking both sides) depending on your preference/position. Probably the world's first "stadium" course, years ahead of its time, not at all sure if Peter Dye ever visited? I think JHT & Lees made a very good, enjoyable and well-framed test of golf from a bland low-lying site on pretty wet ground.

Like Dunn he is less written about (although Michael Morrison has done 3 great articles on Dunn), and the list of courses he worked upon (albeit sometimes confused as to whether it was design or construction work w. Hawtree) is still very impressive.

So regardless of how we categorise JHT and other earlier ODGs he seems to me to be less discussed (and dare I say respected) and thus worthy of more research. If you or anyone knows of good books/atricles on JHT I'd been keen to learn more.

His desire to see and create public access golf, and leading role in the creation of the Artisans movement were also very notable.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2024, 03:24:47 PM »

I always enjoyed playing Royal Mid Surrey "Outer" (now the "JH Taylor") in "The Antlers Foursomes", where the "Alpinisation" mounds he did with Peter Lees (of Lido fame) were both lauded and vilified.
These were considered both strategic (the further off-line the greater the penalty) or penal (if flanking both sides) depending on your preference/position. Probably the world's first "stadium" course, years ahead of its time, not at all sure if Peter Dye ever visited? I think JHT & Lees made a very good, enjoyable and well-framed test of golf from a bland low-lying site on pretty wet ground.



I've never played RMS, but I was amused when someone from a nearby club referred to it in my hearing as 'Royal Mud Surrey'.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2024, 01:36:42 PM »

Padraig Dooley

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Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2024, 11:43:44 AM »
Little Island in Ireland under water:


https://twitter.com/CorkGolfClub/status/1716779356109119977
That was last October after Storm Babet
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A VERY Rainy British Winter!
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2024, 10:28:07 AM »
All of the rain appears to be devastating to the agricultural industry as well:  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/09/farmers-warn-food-shortages-no-harvest-world-war-two-rain/