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Mike Hendren

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There often is little dispersion of green sizes on most courses.  Where are there exceptions?  Off the top of my head I thought of the 15th and 18th greens at Fenway.  Exclude double greens. 


Why isnít this more prevalent?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2023, 05:10:15 PM by Mike Hendren »
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Ben Hollerbach

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Any way you square it, itís probably going to be hard to beat the difference between the 8th (5,315 sqft) and 17th (30,340 sqft) at Landmand.












Brian Ross

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Unfortunately, this is something that seems to get overlooked/neglected during the design process. I think too many get caught up in trying to produce a set of greens that are somewhere near the "average" of 6,000 SF and just end up building everything between 5,500 and 6,500 SF.

We thought about this a lot at Park Mammoth. We built the smallest green (4,450 SF) on the longest non-Par 5 (452 Yard Par 4 4th Hole) and the largest (non-double) green (11,612 SF) on the shortest hole (109 Yard Par 3 11th).

Our project at Jekyll Island in Georgia will have greens anywhere from 4,200 SF to 12,650 SF (both Par 3s).

*Edited for context...
« Last Edit: December 28, 2023, 06:35:48 PM by Brian Ross »
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John Kavanaugh

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Loved everything at Park Mammoth. Congrats.

Kyle Harris

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Streamsong Red #3 was like 3-4,000 sq. ft. while Red #6 was 14,000 sq. ft.


Similar difference between Blue #6 and Blue #14.
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Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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Tom_Doak

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Why isnít this more prevalent?




It's mostly a matter of practicality. 


It's difficult to build small greens anymore.  If you are building a course that expects a lot of play [which most clients hope for], the superintendent is going to insist on at least 5000 sf per green, possibly 6000.  So the lower bound is more limited than it used to be.


And if you are thinking practically, and 6000 sf will suffice, it seems pretty unnecessary to build one that's 12000 sf.


Sure, you can find ways to justify it, the best of which is "that's just what I felt like building".  :)  But the number of times I've worked on a hole where I thought it really NEEDED a 12,000 sf green are small enough to count on one hand.


Variety is important.  Overdoing variety for the sake of publicity is not the same thing.

Sean_A

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If greens are the most important element of courses and variety is critical, then green size variety is its own justification. That said, on firm turf, short grass runoffs essentially serve as green extensions.

Off the top of my head Beau Desert has decent size differential between 18 and a few of the smaller greens such as 9.

SGH has a wide difference between 10 and 11.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Ally Mcintosh

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Any way you square it, itís probably going to be hard to beat the difference between the 8th (5,315 sqft) and 17th (30,340 sqft) at Landmand.


I canít think of any circumstance where a 30,000 sqf green is anything but a gimmick. The only other one I know that is close is the 120 yard long green at The European Club. Definitely a gimmick, albeit one I quite like.


Even the largest green in the world (5,13 at TOC) is around 44,000 sqf but servicing two holes.


Once you deal with potential maintenance issues, small greens are far more effective in influencing holes. Think the 10th at Riviera. Or at Portmarnock, our only really short par-4 in the 27 is the 4th on the yellow nine which is a magnificent hole because the green is half the size of any other.


Variety in size is important but that variety doesnít need to be so big that golf holes feel like they are from entirely different courses. As a complete generalisation, you donít really need (or even want) more than 4 or 5,000 sqf difference between smallest and largest green in an 18.

Stewart Abramson

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What are the ranges in green sizes at Old Mac, Streamsong Black and Mammoth Dunes?

Peter Ferlicca

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Scottsdale National The Other Course might win this one.  The 5th green is over 21,000 sq ft, and then quickly followed up by the 7th green which is around 4,000 sq ft. 


Bad Little Nine hole #9 probably wins for smallest green around at 900 sq ft.  It seems like an impossible target when you are on the tee box. 


The amount of variety at Scottsdale National is amazing, I am surprised it is discussed more.  It also is extremely private, so that might be why. 

Sean_A

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Re: Courses with Greatest Size Difference Between Smallest and Largest Greens
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2023, 08:39:40 AM »
Any way you square it, itís probably going to be hard to beat the difference between the 8th (5,315 sqft) and 17th (30,340 sqft) at Landmand.


I canít think of any circumstance where a 30,000 sqf green is anything but a gimmick. The only other one I know that is close is the 120 yard long green at The European Club. Definitely a gimmick, albeit one I quite like.


Even the largest green in the world (5,13 at TOC) is around 44,000 sqf but servicing two holes.


Once you deal with potential maintenance issues, small greens are far more effective in influencing holes. Think the 10th at Riviera. Or at Portmarnock, our only really short par-4 in the 27 is the 4th on the yellow nine which is a magnificent hole because the green is half the size of any other.


Variety in size is important but that variety doesnít need to be so big that golf holes feel like they are from entirely different courses. As a complete generalisation, you donít really need (or even want) more than 4 or 5,000 sqf difference between smallest and largest green in an 18.

I am not sure about the influence comment. When I last played TOC I was very aware to not play too safely and be left in three putt territory. The green sizes heavily influenced me.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Steve Lapper

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Re: Courses with Greatest Size Difference Between Smallest and Largest Greens
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2023, 08:43:10 AM »
Without succumbing to any gimmickry, Friars Head has quite the differential. The 17th hole is 3,300 sf, and the 10th 18,000sf. What is even more interesting is they are both par threes.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2023, 10:18:25 AM by Steve Lapper »
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Jason Thurman

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Re: Courses with Greatest Size Difference Between Smallest and Largest Greens
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2023, 09:12:17 AM »
Loved everything at Park Mammoth. Congrats.


+1
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Courses with Greatest Size Difference Between Smallest and Largest Greens
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2023, 09:20:00 AM »
Any way you square it, itís probably going to be hard to beat the difference between the 8th (5,315 sqft) and 17th (30,340 sqft) at Landmand.


I canít think of any circumstance where a 30,000 sqf green is anything but a gimmick. The only other one I know that is close is the 120 yard long green at The European Club. Definitely a gimmick, albeit one I quite like.


Even the largest green in the world (5,13 at TOC) is around 44,000 sqf but servicing two holes.


Once you deal with potential maintenance issues, small greens are far more effective in influencing holes. Think the 10th at Riviera. Or at Portmarnock, our only really short par-4 in the 27 is the 4th on the yellow nine which is a magnificent hole because the green is half the size of any other.


Variety in size is important but that variety doesnít need to be so big that golf holes feel like they are from entirely different courses. As a complete generalisation, you donít really need (or even want) more than 4 or 5,000 sqf difference between smallest and largest green in an 18.

I am not sure about the influence comment. When I last played TOC I was very aware to not play too safely and be left in three putt territory. The green sizes heavily influenced me.

Ciao


In other words, you played closer to the target, to a green within a green.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Courses with Greatest Size Difference Between Smallest and Largest Greens
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2023, 09:25:12 AM »
Without succumbing to any gimmickry, Friars Heads has quite the differential. The 17th hole is 3,300 sf, and the 10th 18,000sf. What is even more interesting is they are both par threes.


I am getting in to tiny nuances here. But sometimes I feel that such variance in green size dates a course as modern. It is a tiny element of contrivance that moves a course away from ďcould have been built in any ageĒ.


I have never been to Friarís Head.


Iíd be very interested to know which Top-100 courses built before 1930 had huge variances in green sizes. Iíd guess not many. I could be very wrong though. After all, I just mentioned Riviera above. Although I get the feeling most examples would have just one or two small green outliers.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2023, 09:26:51 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Sean_A

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Re: Courses with Greatest Size Difference Between Smallest and Largest Greens
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2023, 09:33:17 AM »
Any way you square it, itís probably going to be hard to beat the difference between the 8th (5,315 sqft) and 17th (30,340 sqft) at Landmand.


I canít think of any circumstance where a 30,000 sqf green is anything but a gimmick. The only other one I know that is close is the 120 yard long green at The European Club. Definitely a gimmick, albeit one I quite like.


Even the largest green in the world (5,13 at TOC) is around 44,000 sqf but servicing two holes.


Once you deal with potential maintenance issues, small greens are far more effective in influencing holes. Think the 10th at Riviera. Or at Portmarnock, our only really short par-4 in the 27 is the 4th on the yellow nine which is a magnificent hole because the green is half the size of any other.


Variety in size is important but that variety doesnít need to be so big that golf holes feel like they are from entirely different courses. As a complete generalisation, you donít really need (or even want) more than 4 or 5,000 sqf difference between smallest and largest green in an 18.

I am not sure about the influence comment. When I last played TOC I was very aware to not play too safely and be left in three putt territory. The green sizes heavily influenced me.

Ciao


In other words, you played closer to the target, to a green within a green.


In many cases I tried to do so 😎.


I like a wide variety of bunker size as well. Same for fairways.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Greatest Size Difference Between Smallest and Largest Greens
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2023, 09:40:18 AM »
Any way you square it, itís probably going to be hard to beat the difference between the 8th (5,315 sqft) and 17th (30,340 sqft) at Landmand.


I canít think of any circumstance where a 30,000 sqf green is anything but a gimmick. The only other one I know that is close is the 120 yard long green at The European Club. Definitely a gimmick, albeit one I quite like.


Even the largest green in the world (5,13 at TOC) is around 44,000 sqf but servicing two holes.


Once you deal with potential maintenance issues, small greens are far more effective in influencing holes. Think the 10th at Riviera. Or at Portmarnock, our only really short par-4 in the 27 is the 4th on the yellow nine which is a magnificent hole because the green is half the size of any other.


Variety in size is important but that variety doesnít need to be so big that golf holes feel like they are from entirely different courses. As a complete generalisation, you donít really need (or even want) more than 4 or 5,000 sqf difference between smallest and largest green in an 18.

I am not sure about the influence comment. When I last played TOC I was very aware to not play too safely and be left in three putt territory. The green sizes heavily influenced me.

Ciao


In other words, you played closer to the target, to a green within a green.


In many cases I tried to do so 😎.


I like a wide variety of bunker size as well. Same for fairways.


Ciao


I agree about bunker sizes. That almost always helps an aesthetic. Thereís one particular celebrated, modern architect who frustratingly builds all of his bunkers almost all the same size.


On fairway width, Iím particular that the fairway needs to work with the surrounding landscape. Variances in fairway width for the sake of it can often look contrived.


Itís the same with every part of design really: The scale has to work as part of the whole.

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Courses with Greatest Size Difference Between Smallest and Largest Greens
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2023, 09:51:54 AM »

Bad Little Nine hole #9 probably wins for smallest green around at 900 sq ft.  It seems like an impossible target when you are on the tee box. 
Pair the tiny 9th with the 4th at over 10,000 sqft and you might have the largest ratio between large and small.

Bruce Katona

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Re: Courses with Greatest Size Difference Between Smallest and Largest Greens
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2023, 11:38:04 AM »
4,000 sf is roughly 20/21 paces x 20/21 paces - a pretty small target for most golfers. I'll defer to Tom, All, Ian, etc. since this is what they're paid for, but perhaps if there are enough pinnable areas and more then ne ingress/egress for foot traffic to the putting surface AND there's enough natural light to maintain proper growing conditions, this would work.


My concern/issue would be more with the teeing ground for a hole with this sized green, especially if its a 1 shotter.  A pet peeve of most of the anyone's customer base will the the conditions of the tees, greens/approaches then fairways, bunkers & then rough.  Tees with little turf due to size limitations and overuse, soil compaction, inadequate sunlight, limiting teeing locations due to crowning from improper top dressing are all pet peeves of the customer base.  I'd be hoping a 1 shotter with a 4,000 sf green has 5,000 sf of teeing ground, 3,750 sf of it for the daily tee placement.

Sean_A

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Re: Courses with Greatest Size Difference Between Smallest and Largest Greens
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2023, 11:47:17 AM »
Any way you square it, itís probably going to be hard to beat the difference between the 8th (5,315 sqft) and 17th (30,340 sqft) at Landmand.


I canít think of any circumstance where a 30,000 sqf green is anything but a gimmick. The only other one I know that is close is the 120 yard long green at The European Club. Definitely a gimmick, albeit one I quite like.


Even the largest green in the world (5,13 at TOC) is around 44,000 sqf but servicing two holes.


Once you deal with potential maintenance issues, small greens are far more effective in influencing holes. Think the 10th at Riviera. Or at Portmarnock, our only really short par-4 in the 27 is the 4th on the yellow nine which is a magnificent hole because the green is half the size of any other.


Variety in size is important but that variety doesnít need to be so big that golf holes feel like they are from entirely different courses. As a complete generalisation, you donít really need (or even want) more than 4 or 5,000 sqf difference between smallest and largest green in an 18.

I am not sure about the influence comment. When I last played TOC I was very aware to not play too safely and be left in three putt territory. The green sizes heavily influenced me.

Ciao


In other words, you played closer to the target, to a green within a green.


In many cases I tried to do so 😎.


I like a wide variety of bunker size as well. Same for fairways.


Ciao


I agree about bunker sizes. That almost always helps an aesthetic. Thereís one particular celebrated, modern architect who frustratingly builds all of his bunkers almost all the same size.


On fairway width, Iím particular that the fairway needs to work with the surrounding landscape. Variances in fairway width for the sake of it can often look contrived.


Itís the same with every part of design really: The scale has to work as part of the whole.


Being contrived isnít a major concern for me. Some of my favourite courses have contrived elements. I think naturalism is the new minimalism. Variety matters more than any school of design.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Greatest Size Difference Between Smallest and Largest Greens
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2023, 11:56:32 AM »
Any way you square it, itís probably going to be hard to beat the difference between the 8th (5,315 sqft) and 17th (30,340 sqft) at Landmand.


I canít think of any circumstance where a 30,000 sqf green is anything but a gimmick. The only other one I know that is close is the 120 yard long green at The European Club. Definitely a gimmick, albeit one I quite like.


Even the largest green in the world (5,13 at TOC) is around 44,000 sqf but servicing two holes.


Once you deal with potential maintenance issues, small greens are far more effective in influencing holes. Think the 10th at Riviera. Or at Portmarnock, our only really short par-4 in the 27 is the 4th on the yellow nine which is a magnificent hole because the green is half the size of any other.


Variety in size is important but that variety doesnít need to be so big that golf holes feel like they are from entirely different courses. As a complete generalisation, you donít really need (or even want) more than 4 or 5,000 sqf difference between smallest and largest green in an 18.

I am not sure about the influence comment. When I last played TOC I was very aware to not play too safely and be left in three putt territory. The green sizes heavily influenced me.

Ciao


In other words, you played closer to the target, to a green within a green.


In many cases I tried to do so 😎.


I like a wide variety of bunker size as well. Same for fairways.


Ciao


I agree about bunker sizes. That almost always helps an aesthetic. Thereís one particular celebrated, modern architect who frustratingly builds all of his bunkers almost all the same size.


On fairway width, Iím particular that the fairway needs to work with the surrounding landscape. Variances in fairway width for the sake of it can often look contrived.


Itís the same with every part of design really: The scale has to work as part of the whole.


Being contrived isnít a major concern for me. Some of my favourite courses have contrived elements. I think naturalism is the new minimalism. Variety matters more than any school of design.


Ciao


I donít know what that means. At least in relation to what I was talking about.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Courses with Greatest Size Difference Between Smallest and Largest Greens
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2023, 03:45:42 PM »
Circa 2014-15, we built a 2,500 sq. ft. green in a tiny space at the end of the par 5 11th hole at the Derrick Club, in Edmonton, Alberta. The 15th green at the Derrick sits in a huge space and measures 10,000 sq. ft.


I had the original 15th green at Harbour Town in mind when I was shaping that 11th green at the Derrick. Shortly after I finished roughing it in, the superintendent found me and said/asked, "That's not the 11th green, is it?" After I pontificated about the brilliance of Harbour Town and my experiences there as a kid (!), he actually let me leave it. But, he also promised we'd be enlarging at some point in the not too distant future. He was right. Probably 3-4 years into the course's existence, we doubled the size of the 11th green. The only subsequent work we've done at the Derrick, actually.



As Tom Doak mentions above, a 2,500 sq. ft. green takes a beating at a busy course.
jeffmingay.com

Thomas Dai

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Re: Courses with Greatest Size Difference Between Smallest and Largest Greens
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2023, 04:52:17 AM »
Greens within greens and unusable areas?
atb

Jay Mickle

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Re: Courses with Greatest Size Difference Between Smallest and Largest Greens
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2023, 08:09:30 AM »
While I donít know square footages,  I do know that the greatest disparity in greens  I can recall was at Landmand, the par 3, 8th and the drivable par 4 17th.
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Bill Crane

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Well,  the answer has got to be ..................................  Pine Valley.
The greens on the 8th hole are about as small as any I have seen on a full golf course.   Probably why there are two of them, although I have never played to the right green - not that I am there that often.
In terms of big # 4, #13, #16 and the 18th green are all large.   Pretty easy to 3+ putt those large greens if your approach is on the wrong side.
The great difference in green sizes is an example of how diverse the design features are at PV.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2024, 04:53:31 PM by Bill Crane »
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