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Michael Whitaker

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Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2023, 01:47:31 PM »
ďI now refuse to buy a debut album by a new band, no matter how many superlatives are thrown at it with initial reviews. Iíll go back and buy the debut once the follow-up gets equally lauded.ď

Ally - ouch! Itís a good thing most people donít think this way or there wouldnít be many bands with a second album!!!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Kalen Braley

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Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2023, 02:10:27 PM »
ďI now refuse to buy a debut album by a new band, no matter how many superlatives are thrown at it with initial reviews. Iíll go back and buy the debut once the follow-up gets equally lauded.ď

Ally - ouch! Itís a good thing most people donít think this way or there wouldnít be many bands with a second album!!!


And i'm not sure how much the analogy works anyways.  Its not like this is C&C's "first album" right?

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2023, 02:40:40 PM »
I spent enough years chasing the new, best thing to have learnt to leave that to others.


This is an indictment of the reviewers, not the artists. In both music and golf courses.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2023, 02:45:00 PM »

Perhaps there should be a 2-year wait after Opening Day before a course can enter the list.


But to ease questions it might be an idea to list the course in an indicative position based on the reviews to date. Afterall, lists are created to make money. There is no money in allowing competitors to get to the finish line first.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2023, 05:54:41 PM »

Perhaps there should be a 2-year wait after Opening Day before a course can enter the list.


GD used to have a two-year waiting period to let the shine wear off the course a bit and so that more guys could see the course. They were criticized for not being up to date.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2023, 06:06:18 PM »
Mark Pearce,

Evidently, AI blocked me from sending you a personal note. I'd write it here, but the purpose of the DM was to speak off-camera.
rm


Two things. First, raters shouldnít be talking about wind as part of an assessment unless they have well grounded experience with the course. Many plays over all seasons. Second, should a course be dinged for being unplayable in 40 or 50 mph winds? How many of our great courses become a joke in those conditions?


Ciao
No course is playable in 40mph winds.  It's not whether the course is playable in those winds that's the issue, though.  The issue is the frequency of days where the wind is too strong to play.


Mark, attached is a photo of the anemometer in the R&A on the day we played the Old. Could you hold an Open there that day? No. But aside from a few tricky putts, I had more fun in that round than I can remember. It did settle down a bit on the back to apprx. 30mph, but seeing the course like that made me realise it truly is the greatest course in the world. Because it was so wide, and the greens so large you could actually play and have fun :)



Tim,


My first job was in wind tunnels.  Scientifically calibrated.  Accurate.  At a wind speed of 50mph, it is not possible to walk without leaning into the wind acutely and bracing.  You cannot stand straight (at least I couldn't, then, and I was very fit at the time).  You certainly couldn't swing a golf club.  That anemometer reading suggests gale force winds (and winds that would cause damage to property).  I hate to break it to you, but you did not play golf in 65mph winds.


Mark
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2023, 07:44:05 AM »
I have played 67 of the top 100 in the world list and don't have many disagreements with GOLF's list. I would never impugn Ran's integrity, but Darius is correct on one point, it is not a good look. GOLF, however, has had folks in the industry on its rating panel since its inception.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #57 on: December 04, 2023, 08:29:37 AM »
I have played 67 of the top 100 in the world list and don't have many disagreements with GOLF's list. I would never impugn Ran's integrity, but Darius is correct on one point, it is not a good look. GOLF, however, has had folks in the industry on its rating panel since its inception.


Iím with you Tommy, although Iíve only played 29 of top courses. Hoping to add another 10-12 this year.


With regard to the list, the central charge of bias as alleged by Darius Oliver seems largely unrefuted.  I think conflict of interest is too strong of an allegation, though.


I donít know the impact of these rankings within the golf industry ó i.e., is there actual financial impact based on the ranking (or not being ranked). 


I like the lists because it informs me of courses to see/play. So now this list will become like reading the NY Times or Washington Post or Fox.com ó Iíll read with one eye open to known or suspected biases.




Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #58 on: December 04, 2023, 09:00:51 AM »
I now refuse to buy a debut album by a new band, no matter how many superlatives are thrown at it with initial reviews. Iíll go back and buy the debut once the follow-up gets equally lauded.
Why wouldn't you want to own a really good album?  The debut Stone Roses album was one of the best in a decade.  The follow up up more than a little meh.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2023, 09:31:54 AM »
Good music is generally timeless but that doesn't mean it always resonates right from the off. The Stone Roses first album is a case in point for me. I didn't really "find" it until well after the band had gone their separate ways and now I think it is one of the best albums since the advent of punk. Perhaps a bit of time and perspective helped me get there ?


Are golf courses the same ? I played Castle Stuart 3 times on a single trip this year. I hadn't played it since a few years before lockdown and over the piece I'm now into double figures of plays. I've never been the biggest fan of the course and always thought a lot of the praise and comments kind of smacked of Emperors new clothes. However this time round I was a bit more enamoured with the course. It's settling in to its landscape a bit better, and that together with various tweaks have helped give it a bit more definition, at least to me. Don't get me wrong, I still don't think it's all that but it is (now ?) a better course than I gave it credit for.


Niall   

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2023, 10:05:22 AM »
I now refuse to buy a debut album by a new band, no matter how many superlatives are thrown at it with initial reviews. Iíll go back and buy the debut once the follow-up gets equally lauded.
Why wouldn't you want to own a really good album?  The debut Stone Roses album was one of the best in a decade.  The follow up up more than a little meh.


Danger with my comments being taken a little too literally. Iíll explain.


I used to have my finger firmly on the pulse with new music to the extent that a band was usually old news to me by the time a debut album came out. I was that pain in the arse muso who liked to be first on the scene. As a result, Iíve about 500 albums in my collection from bands that seemed like the new best thing; but were actually a flash in the pan and worse - their music dated quickly and was probably never that great.


When I say Iíll wait until the second album, what I really mean is that Iíll wait until the hullabaloo has died down and if that first album has grown and continued to go up in peopleís estimations, I will investigate.


In other words there is no rush to find new music.


You could say the same with golf courses. Thereís a lot of heralded stuff out there I havenít seen yet that has stood the test of time. Iím not always in a rush to see the latest opening.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2023, 10:05:59 AM »
If Darius is correct, putting a course on a list that hasn't opened isn't a good look, especially considering the seeming conflict of interest. But, from taking in bits and pieces over the decades, Ran seems like a most solid guy. We're human and all flub one once in a while. Life goes on.


I now refuse to buy a debut album by a new band, no matter how many superlatives are thrown at it with initial reviews. Iíll go back and buy the debut once the follow-up gets equally lauded.


It's a shame you'll miss playing Oakmont. It's pretty good.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2023, 10:16:45 AM »
See above post for explanation, Tommy

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2023, 11:23:37 PM »
On replies #27 and 47-49 of this thread, some have suggested a writing period of 2 years after opening day of any new course before  a course could be included on a TopXXX list.  The stated reason for such waiting period was to avoid the "recently bias" and "hype" that people felt often comes during initial days, causing courses to enter these list too high and then fade away.   Also stated was a sense that there was something unfair about rating a course before it is officially open.


On an earlier post I answered the latter claim by pointing out that owners/managers/of these courses are taking a risk by allowing raters early access as it is likely that such play would be prior to full grow in of the course.  I would be interested in hearing how a course's initial rating is benefited by raters playing it in a pre-opening preview round.


But the larger point I would like to make here's is that over the past 30 years or so, the actual history of new course ratings is that far more courses moved up in the ratings for their second listing than moved down!  As some of you know, I have built and continue to maintain a spreadsheet with all of the all of the credible World 100 and USA 100/200/400 lists published since this phenomena started in 1966.  The 49 World 100 lists I have on the spreadsheet are:


GOLF Magazine (23 lists 1979-2023)
Golf Digest (3 lists 2014-18)
Top100golfcourses.com (10 lists 2006-22)
Ran's Custodians (4 lists 147-150)
Rolex 1000 (2 lists Editions 1&2)
Golf World (UK) (2 lists 2010-11)
Links Magazine (1 list...final 2014 listing)
Golf Architecture  (1 Architect survey...about 10 years ago)
Outpost Club (2 lists 2020-22)
MacWood Spoof (1 list published on GCA...fictional 1939 list)


So I looked at all the "Modern" (1960 cut off) courses that made their first appearance on a GOLF mag list in 1995 or later...there have been a total of 41 courses...of those 41:


29 moved UP two years after their initial listing (the next edition)
10 moved DOWN two years after, and
2 stayed at the same level:


specifically:


MOVED UP:
Shanqin Bay 78-->47
9 Bridges 95-->60
Ellerston 73-->62
Barn Bou Dunes  49-->35
BB Lost Farm 82-->72
Tara Iti 29-->27
Les Bordes (Hanse) 97-->83
Oitavos Dunes 88-->68
San Lorenzo 100-->56
Valderamma 86-->51
European Club 98-->91
St Patricks  55-->49
Loch Lomond 44-->39
Trump Int Scot 50-->48
Cabot Cliffs 50-->43
Cabot Links 82-->75
Daiman Dunes 58-->52
Spyglass 93-->80
World Woods 66-->64
Ocean Forest 81-->77
Nanea 76-->75
Nantucket 98-->91
Rock Creek 99-->84
Sand Hills 17-->14
Friars Hd 74->33 (biggest jump)
Bandon Dunes 80-->70
Pacific Dunes 26-->19
Kiawah 79-->56
Whistl Strts 65-->50


MOVED DOWN:
Cape Kidnappers 27-->41
Kauri Cliffs 49-->58
Kingbarns 46-->65
Cabo-Ocean 68-->70
Ballyneal 82-->83
Wade Hamp 66-->77
Shadow Ck 59-->70
Dbl Eagle 74-->81
Old MacDon 74-->88
Cham Bay 77-->87

Stayed Same:

Ayodah 76-->76
Castle Stuart 56-->56

Waterville also stayed the same but that was a Renovation.


Based on the above...waiting 2 years would have caused a greater drop on average!!


As a side note, I was able to play Point Hardy on Nov 9.  As that was after our GM ballots were due, I could not vote on Pt Hardy...but I think its #76 rating was about right.


One other thing...I distribute this spreadsheet whenever a new version is ready to about 300 people...if any of you want to be added to the distribution list, please send me a private message with your email address.












 









Chris Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2023, 11:56:45 PM »
Garden City is WAY too low...   ;D

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2023, 01:43:38 AM »
Hi Paul,


Thanks for providing that info - interesting facts.


However, I believe it doesnít hugely matter which way a course moves two years after it first appearsÖ the point is that the rush to include it in the first place is job done.


If a course is included at - say - no. 80 in a ranking, then the self perpetuation of rankings will have enough people agree in future years that it isnít too far away from where it needs to be. In other words, its marketing is 90% complete. It may be unlucky enough to slide out after 4 or 6 years; or it may gradually rise. Neither of those eventualities is likely directly related to any kind of objective quality.


Because as we know, trying to pretend that one course is the 80th best out of ~ 40,000 and another is 90th best is really a makey-uppy game.

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2023, 10:57:40 AM »
Ally...so if you are right, nothing changes no matter how long we wait for the first rating.  People will still want to be the "first" even if it is 10 years after opening day.


You are assuming that most raters are merely sheep following a leader.  In which case...do away with ratings?   And do you suppose that people will stop asking/wondering what are the best courses in the World, USA, GB&I or wherever?  I hope not...that would mean that we have lost our sense of curiosity.


I totally agree that there is no such thing a the "perfect top XXX".  But obviously, it is something of great interest to lots of us...as evidence by the sheer volume of posts to threads dealing w ratings lists.


Finally, how can I (other other Type A's) have bucket lists to chase and complete without ratings.  What are old folks like me supposed too do in retirement?   ;D ;D ;D










 

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2023, 07:35:51 AM »
Back to wind....


I hosted a group of 4 couples at Ballybunion some 10 years ago.  We arrived on a clear blue day with the wind raging.  Management had closed the two courses, due to the high wind, so we sat around the clubhouse, had lunch and waiting with a bunch of others. They finally said that the courses would remain closed for the day and gave us our money back.  There were a bunch of disappointed people in our group.  We did walk down to the 18th green and got a group shot of us all hanging onto the flag.  Don't know the wind speeds but the flag was waaay bent over and we were very much leaning into it.  Of the many times I've been to the UK over the years and having played 99 of the UK 100 under a myriad of conditions, that's the only time I remember a UK course closed due to wind.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2023, 07:39:04 AM »
Back to wind....


I hosted a group of 4 couples at Ballybunion some 10 years ago.  We arrived on a clear blue day with the wind raging.  Management had closed the two courses, due to the high wind, so we sat around the clubhouse, had lunch and waiting with a bunch of others. They finally said that the courses would remain closed for the day and gave us our money back.  There were a bunch of disappointed people in our group.  We did walk down to the 18th green and got a group shot of us all hanging onto the flag.  Don't know the wind speeds but the flag was waaay bent over and we were very much leaning into it.  Of the many times I've been to the UK over the years and having played 99 of the UK 100 under a myriad of conditions, that's the only time I remember a UK course closed due to wind.


Ours closed yesterday due to wind funnily enough. I suspect they make the call when there is an orange (or red) forecast warning.


(Ireland, not UK. But I know that was just a slip of the keyboard)

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2023, 07:45:10 AM »
Of the many times I've been to the UK over the years and having played 99 of the UK 100 under a myriad of conditions, that's the only time I remember a UK course closed due to wind.
When I played Turnberry almost every other course within about 10+ miles was closed for high winds.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Darius Oliver shits on Ran
« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2023, 07:45:53 PM »
Quote
When one watches the Titans at play, their tremendous drives often make their seconds absurdly easy. Holes of 440 yards are sometimes reduced to the drive-and-pitch variety, and their accuracy is often so machine-like that the game seems silly. But such golf is much more frequently seen inland than by the sea. Place these same Titans on links-land and what a difference when the wind blows! There only are championships in Britain held, and there only, after all, can the real champion be sifted out from the many fine golfers of the present day. The man who can play his shots in a gale and control them at the finish to some of the glassy seaside greens, richly deserves the title.
Just thought some Robert Hunter is relevant here. I wonder if they closed the courses for being too windy back then.
Building an encyclopedia of golf courses that anyone can edit: Golf Course Wiki
Some strong opinions on golf: Wigs on the Green
I really think golf culture should be more like beer culture than wine culture

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