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John Connolly

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The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« on: November 25, 2023, 08:02:25 PM »
As I was reading Marty Bonnar's excellent reference to the renovation of the original at North Berwick, I was wondering how the original and its downstream templates play with respect to elevation change. My measurement tool is crude, Google Earth, but I see differences. Each are measured from the middle of the back tee to the center of the green.

The original at NB - 5 ft uphill
Chicago Golf - 2 ft uphill
Shinnecock - 5 ft downhill
Shoreacres - flat
Fox Chapel's reverse - flat


... to name a few.

I guess slightly uphill is how they are to be built if one is interested in absolute fidelity. So do these slightly uphill or downhill versions violate the original's intent? Or just rounding errors?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2023, 08:03:57 PM by John Connolly »
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2023, 08:43:25 PM »
Personally, I'm not a fan of uphill Redans.  I think the best of them is the 4th at NGLA, which is a few feet downhill.  That allows you to see the ball run out down the slope of the green.


If it's too far downhill, though, the ball isn't going to run out as much when it lands, and that's an integral part of the hole.  The Redan at Yale is the one that comes to mind as too far downhill.

Tim_Weiman

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2023, 11:09:32 PM »
Personally, I'm not a fan of uphill Redans.  I think the best of them is the 4th at NGLA, which is a few feet downhill.  That allows you to see the ball run out down the slope of the green.


If it's too far downhill, though, the ball isn't going to run out as much when it lands, and that's an integral part of the hole.  The Redan at Yale is the one that comes to mind as too far downhill.
Tom,


A few years ago there was a thread that included a debate about the Redan at Mountain Lake. The debate was basically about whether the hole was too easy, but I donít recall anyone making the observation you did hill about a Redan being too far downhill. IMO, that Redan may have the problem you describe.


As for Yale, I agree. It may not have been a good place to build a Redan or maybe the tee was just in the wrong place.
Tim Weiman

Jeff Schley

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2023, 01:18:02 AM »
Fisherís Island has to be quite a bit uphill.  Iím not sure if you are measuring from the middle tee to the highest point of the green as well?
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Sean_A

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2023, 03:50:20 AM »
I spose there is an argument to see the runout of the tee shot. Still, to me one of the critical elements of Redan is the blindness which is created by the uphill nature  of the shot. There is always a some doubt as to the line because of wind. None of the other Redans I have played feature this doubt. I spose ya gotta weigh up doubt offering the later reveal VS the immediate reveal. In my experience the later reveal is more exciting, but that may partially be because itís a better hole. I donít know. What I will say is the later versions tend to exaggerate the right to left swing so seeing it is more exciting. NB Redan doesnít swing all that much.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2023, 06:41:38 AM »
If I did this correctly, the redan at Hidden Creek (#4) is 21 feet downhill. It doesn't seem that far downhill from the tee, but that is what I measured on Google Earth.
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2023, 06:49:42 AM »
I spose there is an argument to see the runout of the tee shot. Still, to me one of the critical elements of Redan is the blindness which is created by the uphill nature  of the shot. There is always a some doubt as to the line because of wind. None of the other Redans I have played feature this doubt. I spose ya gotta weigh up doubt offering the later reveal VS the immediate reveal. In my experience the later reveal is more exciting, but that may partially be because itís a better hole. I donít know. What I will say is the later versions tend to exaggerate the right to left swing so seeing it is more exciting. NB Redan doesnít swing all that much.

Ciao


Yes I too like the concept that much of the green is hidden over the front rise.

Sean_A

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2023, 07:51:31 AM »
I spose there is an argument to see the runout of the tee shot. Still, to me one of the critical elements of Redan is the blindness which is created by the uphill nature  of the shot. There is always a some doubt as to the line because of wind. None of the other Redans I have played feature this doubt. I spose ya gotta weigh up doubt offering the later reveal VS the immediate reveal. In my experience the later reveal is more exciting, but that may partially be because itís a better hole. I donít know. What I will say is the later versions tend to exaggerate the right to left swing so seeing it is more exciting. NB Redan doesnít swing all that much.

Ciao

Yes I too like the concept that much of the green is hidden over the front rise.

The rise with the bunkers blocks the view. Now that I think of it, this element of later Redans is often downplayed or not included. The NB Redan is quite a complicated hole. The cool thing is the complications can be more or less eliminated by going long. That is totally different from the other Redans I have seen.

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 27, 2023, 06:14:20 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

John Connolly

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2023, 11:45:23 AM »
Fisherís Island has to be quite a bit uphill.  Iím not sure if you are measuring from the middle tee to the highest point of the green as well?


Actually, it plays flat, from 7ft above sea level from middle of back tees to 6ft at middle of green.
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Mike Worth

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2023, 12:35:19 PM »
If I did this correctly, the redan at Hidden Creek (#4) is 21 feet downhill. It doesn't seem that far downhill from the tee, but that is what I measured on Google Earth.


I was a member there for 18 years. I agree that it doesnít feel like that much downhill pfrom the tee. Maybe 6í

John Connolly

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2023, 01:25:22 PM »
If I did this correctly, the redan at Hidden Creek (#4) is 21 feet downhill. It doesn't seem that far downhill from the tee, but that is what I measured on Google Earth.


I was a member there for 18 years. I agree that it doesnít feel like that much downhill pfrom the tee. Maybe 6í


Tommy,
From the middle of back tee to middle of green, it drops 22 ft using the Google Earth measurement.
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Tim Martin

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2023, 01:38:20 PM »

If it's too far downhill, though, the ball isn't going to run out as much when it lands, and that's an integral part of the hole.  The Redan at Yale is the one that comes to mind as too far downhill.


I hope this issue is addressed during the restoration where even a shot that finds the front of the green will move left. It seems that the transition area in front as well as the green itself will need to be reworked to accomplish same. It should hopefully add some additional pin positions to the perennial back left location.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2023, 01:41:53 PM by Tim Martin »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2023, 01:49:09 PM »
Camargo's Redan drops 7 feet, according to the EarthGoog. That surprises me. I thought that it played uphill when I photographed it.

Yeaman's Hall drops 14 feet.

Country Club of Charleston drops 7 feet.


Midland Hills (MN) RISES 5 feet.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2023, 02:06:10 PM by Ronald Montesano »
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Stewart Abramson

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2023, 02:01:53 PM »
I've had thrills playing Redans that play either way. Playing Sleepy Hollow's downhill 7th hole, it's exciting to stand on the tee and watch a ball start off the slope and wind its way across the green to a hole on the other side . On the other hand on the redan at Stonewall Old, I've hiit far from the flag and had no idea where the ball ended up. Once finding it hanging on the lip and another far away from the hole.

mike_malone

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2023, 05:49:05 PM »
I spose there is an argument to see the runout of the tee shot. Still, to me one of the critical elements of Redan is the blindness which is created by the uphill nature  of the shot. There is always a some doubt as to the line because of wind. None of the other Redans I have played feature this doubt. I spose ya gotta weigh up doubt offering the later reveal VS the immediate reveal. In my experience the later reveal is more exciting, but that may partially be because itís a better hole. I donít know. What I will say is the later versions tend to exaggerate the right to left swing so seeing it is more exciting. NB Redan doesnít swing all that much.

Ciao


Totally agree with Sean here. The reveal uphill is the essence of the Redan. Itís something to be attacked not finessed.
AKA Mayday

Ronald Montesano

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2023, 06:07:58 PM »
Consider our five senses. Would anyone argue that, if all five are intact, the sense of sight is the most valuable?

If that is the case, how can the postponed revelation possibly rival the immediate revelation? You watch the denouement in real time, and you oooh and aaaah as breath is held, then released.

This is not to say that the origianl Redan hole at NBWL is flawed. It is perfect (I haven't played it; I just trust yuze guize that have.) I've played NGLA (closest I'll ever come to an ace) Pacific Dunes, Old MacDonald, Fox Chapel, and Yale, and photographed Camargo and Sleepy Hollow. Watching the arc, the trace, and the result equal beauteous drama in my mind.

I also love a blind shot over a mount. When talking about a kick plate, however, I crave the visual.
Coming in August 2023
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~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Mike Schott

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2023, 09:42:26 PM »
Tom, could comment on the original 4th hole at High Pointe? It was named Redan and if I remember correctly the tee shot was over a valley. It's been 25 or so years since I've played it so my memory may be fuzzy.

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2023, 09:05:22 AM »
Tom, could comment on the original 4th hole at High Pointe? It was named Redan and if I remember correctly the tee shot was over a valley. It's been 25 or so years since I've played it so my memory may be fuzzy.


Yes, it played from near the old barn to a ridge green site on a diagonal.  You were playing slightly down grade but then the ridge came back up, so the green and tee were approximately the same elevation.


What it didn't have was a decent landing area for a ball to land short and run on; a short ball to the right hit into the face of the ridge and stopped.  I was disappointed in how it played and started paying closer attention to other Redans that I liked, and realized that on most of the best ones, there was a bit of fairly level approach just short of the green, that you aimed at if you were trying to play the running shot down the length of the green.  The 4th at NGLA has the best of these, it's really a beautiful thing.


I've built somewhere around ten versions of the Redan, and I'm never totally satisfied with any of them.  The 17th at Pacific Dunes is the best of them when it plays downwind . . . the approach is perfect . . . but the prevailing summer wind is quartering into you from the left [hard!] and that is probably the worst wind you could have to play the hole.  The OG at North Berwick generally plays straight downwind or else straight into it, which is ideal for the two different means of attack.


P.S.  The Redan at High Pointe is lost to the hops farm, and isn't part of the new development.  I didn't try to build a Redan on the new property.  I've kind of sworn off them, although I've got one client now who is insistent about having one.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2023, 09:07:28 AM by Tom_Doak »

Ira Fishman

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2023, 02:25:05 PM »
I've had thrills playing Redans that play either way. Playing Sleepy Hollow's downhill 7th hole, it's exciting to stand on the tee and watch a ball start off the slope and wind its way across the green to a hole on the other side . On the other hand on the redan at Stonewall Old, I've hiit far from the flag and had no idea where the ball ended up. Once finding it hanging on the lip and another far away from the hole.


I loved everything about Sleepy Hollow 7 until my shot skittered past the pin over the green into the bunker! It really is a cool hole. Somerset Hills 2 is another one for your group to lean one way or other in hopes of influencing the path of the ball.


Ira

J_ Crisham

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2023, 02:57:04 PM »
Our redan at Blue Mound,  the 13th,  drops 10-15 feet from tee to green. It really allows for a good visual as the ball releases. Plays into the prevailing South wind in the summer which results in quite a few balls either short or in the left bunker. Great hole on  a vastly under rated course and under the radar Raynor.

Nate Oxman

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2023, 04:43:44 PM »

Two more according to Google Earth:
Knoll West #3 - 16 feet down
Forsgate's reverse #7 - almost 30 feet down
The Creek's reverse #8 - 4 feet down

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2023, 08:27:39 AM »
Camargo's Redan drops 7 feet, according to the EarthGoog. That surprises me. I thought that it played uphill when I photographed it.
That's kinda crazy. I thought it was slightly uphill too. But yeah, 830 feet at the tee to about 823 around the middle-ish area of the green (the front right is about 825, the back left about 821).
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Enno Gerdes

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2023, 06:50:28 AM »
Does the 13th (?) at Cavendish qualify as a Redan? If so: it's about 30 feet uphill.

Mike Schott

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2023, 10:40:20 PM »
Tom, could comment on the original 4th hole at High Pointe? It was named Redan and if I remember correctly the tee shot was over a valley. It's been 25 or so years since I've played it so my memory may be fuzzy.


Yes, it played from near the old barn to a ridge green site on a diagonal.  You were playing slightly down grade but then the ridge came back up, so the green and tee were approximately the same elevation.


What it didn't have was a decent landing area for a ball to land short and run on; a short ball to the right hit into the face of the ridge and stopped.  I was disappointed in how it played and started paying closer attention to other Redans that I liked, and realized that on most of the best ones, there was a bit of fairly level approach just short of the green, that you aimed at if you were trying to play the running shot down the length of the green.  The 4th at NGLA has the best of these, it's really a beautiful thing.


I've built somewhere around ten versions of the Redan, and I'm never totally satisfied with any of them.  The 17th at Pacific Dunes is the best of them when it plays downwind . . . the approach is perfect . . . but the prevailing summer wind is quartering into you from the left [hard!] and that is probably the worst wind you could have to play the hole.  The OG at North Berwick generally plays straight downwind or else straight into it, which is ideal for the two different means of attack.


P.S.  The Redan at High Pointe is lost to the hops farm, and isn't part of the new development.  I didn't try to build a Redan on the new property.  I've kind of sworn off them, although I've got one client now who is insistent about having one.


Thanks Tom. I played the course 4-5 times and usually from 1 set of tees further back than I should have. I remember landing short most of these rounds, putting myself in poor position to get up and down.

Philip Caccamise

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Re: The Redan and its Templates - Uphill, Downhill and Flat
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2023, 11:31:12 PM »
Personally, I'm not a fan of uphill Redans.  I think the best of them is the 4th at NGLA, which is a few feet downhill.  That allows you to see the ball run out down the slope of the green.


If it's too far downhill, though, the ball isn't going to run out as much when it lands, and that's an integral part of the hole.  The Redan at Yale is the one that comes to mind as too far downhill.
Tom,


A few years ago there was a thread that included a debate about the Redan at Mountain Lake. The debate was basically about whether the hole was too easy, but I donít recall anyone making the observation you did hill about a Redan being too far downhill. IMO, that Redan may have the problem you describe.


As for Yale, I agree. It may not have been a good place to build a Redan or maybe the tee was just in the wrong place.


I felt like Black Creek Club had this problem and I looked it up- 50(!) feet downhill.

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