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Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
OT - Could we rollback flex instead of the ball?
« on: November 30, 2023, 08:58:22 PM »
I know this might sound really dumb, but what if we nerfed shaft flex instead of the ball? I'm not sure, but shouldn't you still be able still crush the ball, but it would be much, much less controllable. Slower ideal clubhead speeds would mean shorter distances, but players over-swinging with a big margin of error in the fairway could still get a bit more out of it.

I dunno, it's just an idea I wanted to get some feedback on. I'm sure there are a hundred reasons why it doesn't make sense.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2023, 09:01:37 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Could we rollback flex instead of the ball?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2023, 09:28:18 PM »
I know this might sound really dumb, but what if we nerfed shaft flex instead of the ball? I'm not sure, but shouldn't you still be able still crush the ball, but it would be much, much less controllable. Slower ideal clubhead speeds would mean shorter distances, but players over-swinging with a big margin of error in the fairway could still get a bit more out of it.

I dunno, it's just an idea I wanted to get some feedback on. I'm sure there are a hundred reasons why it doesn't make sense.


So I can’t really play anymore due to injuries, but maybe some feedback from my perspective.
I was a difficult to fit player for a long time when I was playing in the 90’s.  I didn’t hit it long (maybe middle pack), but always felt better with very strong shafts.


When true temper developed a shaft fitting technology in the mid 90’s I went there the same day as Daly to hit some irons to test for our fitting.


Daly tested out as an S-200 Dynamic Gold for his irons.


I ended up in x-100 dyn gold that I eventually “hard stepped” (one shaft stronger) to work best.  Daly was not quite two clubs longer than me with his irons but the particular dynamics of how I loaded the club, especially in to impact, required a much more stable shaft.


I couldn’t have played a lick with a softer shaft, it applied to driver as well.


Doesn’t mean anything across the board of course, but just an experience for you!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Could we rollback flex instead of the ball?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2023, 10:43:36 PM »
I know this might sound really dumb, but what if we nerfed shaft flex instead of the ball? I'm not sure, but shouldn't you still be able still crush the ball, but it would be much, much less controllable. Slower ideal clubhead speeds would mean shorter distances, but players over-swinging with a big margin of error in the fairway could still get a bit more out of it.

I dunno, it's just an idea I wanted to get some feedback on. I'm sure there are a hundred reasons why it doesn't make sense.


Matt, with respect, it's not that it doesn't make sense.
It's just that there are so, so---many solutions(errr theories) which don't address the actual thing the governing bodies want to address--how far the ball travels.
Many suggest smaller heads-but that assumes the elite can't hit the sweet spot-they can.(put a 3 wood on a driver length shaft and they will bomb it, as they already do with a 3 wood.
Many suggest more spin etc. etc.
Hey, I'd be all for a return to balata and persimmon(seriously) but I'm a realist and know that with all the howling about a simple 5% rollback(about 1/3 of what has been gained in the last 20 years)there would be tenfold whining about having to show the skill it takes to hit a wooden driver and spinny ball.


a whippier shaft-sure it will hurt some(but that's not the goal)
There are plenty it would have no impact on-Freddy Couples had a ladies 3 wood for years.


Narrow fairways,knee deep rough, ditches at 300 across the fairway-everybody has an idea.
But the easiest way to make the ball travel less distance, is to reduce how far the ball goes-regardless of why it goes so far.


the rest are simply theories that will impact different players different ways(of course that could also happen with the rollback)


Nobody seemed to shed many tears when an arbitrary rule was passed because anchoring "didn't look good" and a few players fell off the map, but there were very few of them.
Isn't it interesting that something ruled as giving an advantage, and therefore deemed illegal, was used by so few?


Every single player adopted a hot, long, light shafted driver and multi layer ball.
LOL-I guess because everybody does it, it's not an advantage. ;D ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Could we rollback flex instead of the ball?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2023, 07:21:32 AM »
I know this might sound really dumb, but what if we nerfed shaft flex instead of the ball? I'm not sure, but shouldn't you still be able still crush the ball, but it would be much, much less controllable. Slower ideal clubhead speeds would mean shorter distances, but players over-swinging with a big margin of error in the fairway could still get a bit more out of it.

I dunno, it's just an idea I wanted to get some feedback on. I'm sure there are a hundred reasons why it doesn't make sense.


So I can’t really play anymore due to injuries, but maybe some feedback from my perspective.
I was a difficult to fit player for a long time when I was playing in the 90’s.  I didn’t hit it long (maybe middle pack), but always felt better with very strong shafts.


When true temper developed a shaft fitting technology in the mid 90’s I went there the same day as Daly to hit some irons to test for our fitting.


Daly tested out as an S-200 Dynamic Gold for his irons.


I ended up in x-100 dyn gold that I eventually “hard stepped” (one shaft stronger) to work best.  Daly was not quite two clubs longer than me with his irons but the particular dynamics of how I loaded the club, especially in to impact, required a much more stable shaft.


I couldn’t have played a lick with a softer shaft, it applied to driver as well.


Doesn’t mean anything across the board of course, but just an experience for you!


Daly... S-200's? !!!

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Could we rollback flex instead of the ball?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2023, 09:12:51 AM »
The first two posts sufficiently show why this is a non-starter.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Could we rollback flex instead of the ball?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2023, 10:26:04 AM »
I suspect increasing shaft weight to what it was when steel shafts dominated would be more effective.  At some point, I saw a study that attributed one of the distance jumps to graphite shafts becoming universal. 


I think a move related to shaft weight would be a bad approach.  Lighter shafts help kids develop better mechanics and make the game more playable for significant portions of the playing population. 


If I were to do anything to clubs I would reduce MOI, increasing the penalty for mis-hits.   I think, however, such an approach would be so unpopular and might have little impact on the highest level players that I do not think it is worthwhile.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Could we rollback flex instead of the ball?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2023, 11:17:58 AM »
Aren’t the Autoflex shafts super light and flexible? Local long drive guy at my gym uses one and his driver speed is way north of 125mph.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Could we rollback flex instead of the ball?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2023, 11:46:02 AM »
I suspect increasing shaft weight to what it was when steel shafts dominated would be more effective.  At some point, I saw a study that attributed one of the distance jumps to graphite shafts becoming universal. 


I think a move related to shaft weight would be a bad approach.  Lighter shafts help kids develop better mechanics and make the game more playable for significant portions of the playing population. 


If I were to do anything to clubs I would reduce MOI, increasing the penalty for mis-hits.   I think, however, such an approach would be so unpopular and might have little impact on the highest level players that I do not think it is worthwhile.




These reasons and more are why we always end up back at the ball. Even if the ball is only 30-40 percent responsible for the distance increase, it is the easiest and most egalitarian place to dial back the distance. I will notice the loss of distance, but some of the sting will be taken out knowing that I'm not alone in this.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Could we rollback flex instead of the ball?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2023, 11:56:54 AM »
These reasons and more are why we always end up back at the ball. Even if the ball is only 30-40 percent responsible for the distance increase, it is the easiest and most egalitarian place to dial back the distance. I will notice the loss of distance, but some of the sting will be taken out knowing that I'm not alone in this.
The Ball is also the least expensive and most frequently replace piece of equipment in the players bag.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Could we rollback flex instead of the ball?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2023, 11:58:29 AM »
Eliminate the shaft altogether.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Could we rollback flex instead of the ball?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2023, 01:25:12 PM »
Jeff's post hit the nail on the head.

Reminded me of the convo between Mike and Walter White in Breaking Bad....No More Half Measures!

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Could we rollback flex instead of the ball?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2023, 01:25:54 PM »
JK:

My secret weapon is the no shafted foot wedge!

BK

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Could we rollback flex instead of the ball?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2023, 01:30:33 PM »
Eliminate the shaft altogether.
Now that you mention it, a 300 yards par 4 in Disc Golf would be considered on the longer end, even for the worlds best players.



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