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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2023, 02:19:41 PM »
Kalen,


The cost of included golf, lodging, meals, gifts, etc. comes out closer to $10K per person if not more.  In 2024, that is the going rate of a golf trip in many cases.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2023, 03:00:37 PM »
There’s enough work going on right now that just about anyone willing to roll up their sleeves and contribute could get an actual experience building a golf course, and get paid doing it.


I really don’t know what to make of this boot camp. Does the society think it helps their cause if someone thinks they can design golf after a 3 day crash course? Or are they really trying to show how hard it is? Or is it a new business play?

Ben Sims

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Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2023, 03:14:10 PM »
There’s enough work going on right now that just about anyone willing to roll up their sleeves and contribute could get an actual experience building a golf course, and get paid doing it.


I really don’t know what to make of this boot camp. Does the society think it helps their cause if someone thinks they can design golf after a 3 day crash course? Or are they really trying to show how hard it is? Or is it a new business play?


I was thinking the same thing Don. Literally anyone on this website is two emails away from “living the dream”. I don’t have a problem with this program and as I said earlier, more power to them. I’m sure they will learn things they didn’t otherwise know. But it’s absolutely possible to cultivate relationships and embrace this career field without going to camp.


That said, I hope it isn’t the newest way to get green committees smart. 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2023, 03:16:13 PM by Ben Sims »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2023, 04:17:57 PM »
That said, I hope it isn’t the newest way to get green committees smart.
It could back fire...some of the green committee guys I know locally have had expertise bestowed upon them quickly by joining the DRS and something like this could put them over the top.  Club will never need another archie once dude has been to band camp..I mean golf design camp...but I think it is more of a business move if I had to guess...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Cal Carlisle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2023, 05:11:58 PM »
I really don’t know what to make of this boot camp. Does the society think it helps their cause if someone thinks they can design golf after a 3 day crash course? Or are they really trying to show how hard it is? Or is it a new business play?


I don't think anyone goes into something like this thinking they're going to be an architect, any more than Mike Young's buddy thought he was going to be the Opening Day starter for the Atlanta Braves. Considering there's two rounds of golf slipped in there, this just a fun experience for someone with the money to spend on it. As you point out, there are much more practical opportunities for someone looking to get into that line of work.

Ian Andrew

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Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2023, 09:28:30 AM »

I like where the money is going:

The chief beneficiary is the Clearview Legacy Foundation, whose mission is to preserve the legacy and facilities at Clearview Golf Club, in Ohio, the only course in the country built, owned and operated by an African-American.

Change is good.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2023, 09:38:23 AM »
This would work as a themed cruise. Carnival of course.

Ian Andrew

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Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2023, 10:05:52 AM »

Someone brought up Greens Committees.

I found committee members already liked to add their own input. So it won't change much. Many read golf design books. Younger ones like to follow the Fried Egg. Some read Golf Club Atlas. It's common for a committee  member to dig through and read articles in the USGA Agronomy section.

This wasn't the case 30 years ago.

I would say that more information has been more helpful rather than a source of frustration. Opinions have become more club focused and less individual focused. Golfer will always think about how it will impact "them", but they also consider others too.

I don't find the negative in anything like this. Most will discover its a hard exercise. I've always been surprised how few participated in the design from raw land exercises that we have done here.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2023, 10:43:03 AM by Ian Andrew »
Change is good.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2023, 07:52:22 PM »

I like where the money is going:

The chief beneficiary is the Clearview Legacy Foundation, whose mission is to preserve the legacy and facilities at Clearview Golf Club, in Ohio, the only course in the country built, owned and operated by an African-American.




Agreed.  I had missed that when I first made the post.  I was wondering where all the $ was going.  Maybe I should do a seminar next year and give all the proceeds to charity?


If indeed the participants all look at it like a baseball fantasy camp, no problems here.  I doubt that will happen, though.  I'm betting it's our dentist from Hooper and other guys who will try to use it as a credential, like I've seen some people use the week-long Harvard course . . . and if that's what happens, I'm surprised ASGCA is giving people the credential.


Honestly, though, my main take is that the seminar is aimed at poseurs rather than actual students.  I still remember that, as much help as I got in my youth from everyone else in the greater world of golf, the ASGCA were the outliers . . . they were no help at all, not encouraging in the slightest.  [Not that that should reflect on current members.]  That's the real reason I never wanted to join.  I'd rather put my money toward our internships.


Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2023, 08:28:16 PM »
If indeed the participants all look at it like a baseball fantasy camp, no problems here.  I doubt that will happen, though.  I'm betting it's our dentist from Hooper and other guys who will try to use it as a credential, like I've seen some people use the week-long Harvard course . . . and if that's what happens, I'm surprised ASGCA is giving people the credential.
I think it's intended for someone who is just getting started in GCA. Like, an intern type or something.

Though, what it's intended for and who signs up may also not align.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2023, 08:38:42 PM »

I like where the money is going:

The chief beneficiary is the Clearview Legacy Foundation, whose mission is to preserve the legacy and facilities at Clearview Golf Club, in Ohio, the only course in the country built, owned and operated by an African-American.




Agreed.  I had missed that when I first made the post.  I was wondering where all the $ was going.  Maybe I should do a seminar next year and give all the proceeds to charity?


If indeed the participants all look at it like a baseball fantasy camp, no problems here.  I doubt that will happen, though.  I'm betting it's our dentist from Hooper and other guys who will try to use it as a credential, like I've seen some people use the week-long Harvard course . . . and if that's what happens, I'm surprised ASGCA is giving people the credential.


Honestly, though, my main take is that the seminar is aimed at poseurs rather than actual students.  I still remember that, as much help as I got in my youth from everyone else in the greater world of golf, the ASGCA were the outliers . . . they were no help at all, not encouraging in the slightest.  [Not that that should reflect on current members.]  That's the real reason I never wanted to join.  I'd rather put my money toward our internships.
TD,
I see the ASGCA the same as you. Foundations can raise a lot of money.
Read carefully.  "chief beneficiary" does not mean all profits go to that charity.  And where you would offer "all of your proceeds" to a charity, I don't see that mentioned here.  Foundations are interesting... Associations such as PGA and GCSAA and USGA all have foundations as do clubs like ASGCA also.  A 501c3 is only required to distribute around 5% each year I think.  It's a great vehicle for absorbing expenses  and in the case of family foundations, it's a great way to give the "challenged kid" a job and keep him out of the company business.  I've watched it in a foundation I serve on for the last few years.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2023, 04:39:48 AM »
If indeed the participants all look at it like a baseball fantasy camp, no problems here.  I doubt that will happen, though.  I'm betting it's our dentist from Hooper and other guys who will try to use it as a credential, like I've seen some people use the week-long Harvard course . . . and if that's what happens, I'm surprised ASGCA is giving people the credential.
I think it's intended for someone who is just getting started in GCA. Like, an intern type or something.



... a rich one...
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2023, 06:43:53 PM »
If indeed the participants all look at it like a baseball fantasy camp, no problems here.  I doubt that will happen, though.  I'm betting it's our dentist from Hooper and other guys who will try to use it as a credential, like I've seen some people use the week-long Harvard course . . . and if that's what happens, I'm surprised ASGCA is giving people the credential.
I think it's intended for someone who is just getting started in GCA. Like, an intern type or something.

Though, what it's intended for and who signs up may also not align.


An "intern" that would pay 20G for 4 days?
I'd say "what it's intended for and who signs up" align quite well ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2023, 06:57:12 PM »
An "intern" that would pay 20G for 4 days?
I'd say "what it's intended for and who signs up" align quite well ;)
Someone just starting out… I don't mean a literal intern, I mean someone who is basically a "design associate" or a junior member of the team. The company could pay for it as a perk of their hiring/employment, potentially.

I don't think it's for rich dudes who just want to pretend they're going to become a golf course architect, but maybe there are 20 out there who will do just that. I don't know.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2023, 01:23:59 AM »
An "intern" that would pay 20G for 4 days?
I'd say "what it's intended for and who signs up" align quite well ;)
Someone just starting out… I don't mean a literal intern, I mean someone who is basically a "design associate" or a junior member of the team. The company could pay for it as a perk of their hiring/employment, potentially.

I don't think it's for rich dudes who just want to pretend they're going to become a golf course architect, but maybe there are 20 out there who will do just that. I don't know.


I really think it’s exactly the latter, Erik.


No company is going to pay $20k for this: If a design associate is already in a company, he is going to learn more on the job than he is in these 4 days…. And no intern (the real type, a youngster dying to get in to the business) can afford $20k unless someone else is paying.


I do think those taking part will learn stuff though, even just dipping a toe in the water.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2023, 05:59:24 AM »
An "intern" that would pay 20G for 4 days?
I'd say "what it's intended for and who signs up" align quite well ;)
Someone just starting out… I don't mean a literal intern, I mean someone who is basically a "design associate" or a junior member of the team. The company could pay for it as a perk of their hiring/employment, potentially.

I don't think it's for rich dudes who just want to pretend they're going to become a golf course architect, but maybe there are 20 out there who will do just that. I don't know.

I really think it’s exactly the latter, Erik.

No company is going to pay $20k for this: If a design associate is already in a company, he is going to learn more on the job than he is in these 4 days…. And no intern (the real type, a youngster dying to get in to the business) can afford $20k unless someone else is paying.

I do think those taking part will learn stuff though, even just dipping a toe in the water.


The other issue is, how many golf architecture firms have associates who could conceivably benefit from this training? There are very, very few 'design associate' jobs left in the industry -- the vast majority of architects are one man bands -- and I only know of one recent new recruit, which is that my friend Tim Lobb, who is crazily busy, recently hired Sergio Carballo as an associate. But Tim got to know Sergio when the latter was doing the EIGCA training course, and the former was the Institute's president. In the unlikely event that a firm needs to hire someone, what is the likelihood that anyone who gets the job would need this kind of training? As close to nil as you can possibly imagine, imo.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2023, 08:23:02 AM »
This is a great idea that will find buyers. Even though it’s a bit more expensive than rater school it is clearly more valuable, and more fun. Why should magazines and podcasts be the only agencies to cash in on people’s desire to “become” part of the game. At least the members of ASGCA are true contributors of more than just an opinion.


These trips are hilarious. https://golfweek.usatoday.com/tag/golfweek-raters

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2023, 10:30:38 AM »


 Why should magazines and podcasts be the only agencies to cash in on people’s desire to “become” part of the game.


Hopefully that was not the primary rationale for doing it.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2023, 10:56:41 AM »
It’s important for the ASGCA to separate themselves from neophobic drone pilots who sell day trips at $700 a pop.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2023, 11:06:06 AM »
An "intern" that would pay 20G for 4 days?
I'd say "what it's intended for and who signs up" align quite well ;)
Someone just starting out… I don't mean a literal intern, I mean someone who is basically a "design associate" or a junior member of the team. The company could pay for it as a perk of their hiring/employment, potentially.

I don't think it's for rich dudes who just want to pretend they're going to become a golf course architect, but maybe there are 20 out there who will do just that. I don't know.


I personally place a high value on education, and have spent a lot of money working with and for many of the experts in the field of teaching..
That said, there is zero chance I would condone spending 20K on a 4 day program for "someone just starting out". especially a program that included highend lodging, gifts and golf.
20k would go a long way towards advanced formal education, multiple field trips to ongoing projects or evenmultiple  trips to the shrines of golf overseas.


It's a boondoggle tax writeoff for rich guys.
Nothing wrong with that.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2023, 12:41:19 PM »

I like where the money is going:

The chief beneficiary is the Clearview Legacy Foundation, whose mission is to preserve the legacy and facilities at Clearview Golf Club, in Ohio, the only course in the country built, owned and operated by an African-American.




Agreed.  I had missed that when I first made the post.  I was wondering where all the $ was going.  Maybe I should do a seminar next year and give all the proceeds to charity?


If indeed the participants all look at it like a baseball fantasy camp, no problems here.  I doubt that will happen, though.  I'm betting it's our dentist from Hooper and other guys who will try to use it as a credential, like I've seen some people use the week-long Harvard course . . . and if that's what happens, I'm surprised ASGCA is giving people the credential.


Honestly, though, my main take is that the seminar is aimed at poseurs rather than actual students.  I still remember that, as much help as I got in my youth from everyone else in the greater world of golf, the ASGCA were the outliers . . . they were no help at all, not encouraging in the slightest.  [Not that that should reflect on current members.]  That's the real reason I never wanted to join.  I'd rather put my money toward our internships.
TD,
I see the ASGCA the same as you. Foundations can raise a lot of money.
Read carefully.  "chief beneficiary" does not mean all profits go to that charity.  And where you would offer "all of your proceeds" to a charity, I don't see that mentioned here.  Foundations are interesting... Associations such as PGA and GCSAA and USGA all have foundations as do clubs like ASGCA also.  A 501c3 is only required to distribute around 5% each year I think.  It's a great vehicle for absorbing expenses  and in the case of family foundations, it's a great way to give the "challenged kid" a job and keep him out of the company business.  I've watched it in a foundation I serve on for the last few years.


Tom,


Posers?  Not sure what that means in this context unless we admit everyone here is one of those.  That said, yes, this is more for affluent golf architecture buffs who want a unique experience.  It would be great to find a way to get this out to others, and we may still.  If we end up with 16 green chairs out of 14,800 courses that want to learn to be more ornery, that is a chance we take.  It could also work out that they have more appreciation for what goes into a design.  We actually have had one response where a club wants to gift it to their pro or super as an Xmas bonus, another where a guy asked if he could buy a spot for his child, maybe even taking it together as a nice father-son experience.


If a younger person takes it as one of many learning experiences that might lead to an industry job, then so be that as well.  We don't discriminate!  While I don't see a young associate taking it, there might be some value, i.e., working for a firm with no routing experience, learning that there are different perspectives than those offered by their employer, etc.  But, it is not the main focus that we envisage.


Mike,


Leave it to you to cast this as some dark, sinister plot!  We are being transparent that this year's main recipient is Clearview, and that others are on the horizon.  We have no damaged kids we are trying to employ or anything like that.  Just because you think you know of a few shady foundations doesn't mean they are all like that......we are frankly trying to raise enough money to widen good works, like most legit Foundations.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2023, 01:15:12 PM »
I have only been a member of the ASGCA for about two years but I have almost all positive things to say about the organization.   They exist for the good of the game, not for the good of the members.  From I have have seen, their intentions are very open and very positive. I think they will test the waters with this offering and if it is a net benefit for golf, then it will be deemed a success and they will keep doing it and keep tweaking it to make it better.


If I had one constructive criticism about the ASGCA, it would be that someone like me could have benefited from an organization like this at the beginning of my GCA career vs much later on.  They have recognized this and now have a new program for architects just starting out and/or who have limited experience.  If you ask any of those participants who are in the program you will hear very positive feedback about the ASGCA.  I am working with one of them right now doing my best to give them some work, help expand their club/project interactions and do what I can to keep them excited about the profession. 


I see a lot of positives from a program like this run by the ASGCA and it should be good for golf. 

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2023, 09:18:39 PM »
I remember a previous golf auction that was posted on GCA with an auction granting the winner and frient the ability to walk the tree farm (when it was still the buck club) and play a round with Zac Blair on Palmetto.  They also got some buck club swag.  It went for $15k. 

I'm pretty sure there were other similar types of auctions and I'm with the folks who see this as an adult experience.  Maybe the attendees will learn something useful maybe they won't.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2023, 08:43:24 AM »
Christmas Bonus.



Words escape me.



http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Design Boot Camp ?
« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2023, 02:18:15 PM »
At Erin Hills? Sounds familiar!

Thanks Charlie! You saved me $20,000!

Got to spend well over 4 days designing a full 18 holes at this site. And, I got feedback on my design from practicing architects!

Furthermore, one of my holes was praised and being one of the best!

All for the low, low cost of zero dollars and zero cents thanks to Charlie's effort!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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