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Adam Lawrence

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #75 on: November 20, 2023, 06:01:42 AM »
The pictures of Deal make very upset that I drove past it from Sandwich to Rye.


Yes, that was dumb, but skipping Rye in favor of Deal used to be the norm and that was dumb, too.

Itís a secret that this corner of England is the best area for links in England and possibly all of GB&I. Littlestone and Princes are overlooked as well. England doesnít market itself well.

Ciao

ĎEnglandí canít possibly market itself as a golf destination in the way that Scotland, Ireland or Wales might. Itís too big, too varied, and (for example) Silloth on Solway and Sunningdale have almost nothing in common. We should also note that a significant proportion of the courses that make England so wonderful for golf, most notably the Surrey and Berkshire heathlands, are in _extremely_ affluent locations, and have no need or desire to attract hordes of mostly American travelling golfers.

(Edited to add): I mean, could you, in your wildest dreams, imagine several Perry Golf buses rocking up to Swinley Forest?  :)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2023, 06:04:21 AM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Stewart Abramson

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #76 on: November 20, 2023, 06:35:41 AM »
The pictures of Deal make very upset that I drove past it from Sandwich to Rye.


Yes, that was dumb, but skipping Rye in favor of Deal used to be the norm and that was dumb, too.

Itís a secret that this corner of England is the best area for links in England and possibly all of GB&I. Littlestone and Princes are overlooked as well. England doesnít market itself well.

Ciao




 SSSHHHH. You're letting the secret out. Most foreign golf visitors to England head toward Liverpool to play Hoylake, Lytham St Annes and Birkdale. in 2024 those three rounds will set you back 970 GBP weekday or 1060 GBP weekend ($1,210 and $1,325) Ouch.


While Sandwich is in the same ball park cost-wise,  Deal is 100 GBP less, and Rye 200 GBP less (although they require foursomes format so not quite apples to apples.) Princes IMO is not in the same league as the others, but is a great bargain if you book the package at the Lodge which includes a very nice room, breakfast, dinner and a round of golf.

John Kirk

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #77 on: November 20, 2023, 09:50:08 AM »
North Berwick is now ranked #30 in the world.  I knew that it has made a sustained climb up the list in recent years, so I checked an older version of the Golf list to verify.  In 2001, North Berwick was not on Golf's Top 100 in the World list.  Given there are many new courses (16-17 based on a quick count, with 4 new courses ahead of NB) on this list, that's quite a change in perception.

I played it once and was very impressed.  The front nine was not as visually dramatic as the back nine, but it played beautifully.

The course is only 6550 yards from the back tees, and perhaps this represents a greater consensus approval for shorter courses, despite the fact the modern ball travels further than it did twenty years ago.

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #78 on: November 21, 2023, 06:39:56 PM »

North Berwick is now ranked #30 in the world.  I knew that it has made a sustained climb up the list in recent years, so I checked an older version of the Golf list to verify.  In 2001, North Berwick was not on Golf's Top 100 in the World list.  Given there are many new courses (16-17 based on a quick count, with 4 new courses ahead of NB) on this list, that's quite a change in perception.

I played it once and was very impressed.  The front nine was not as visually dramatic as the back nine, but it played beautifully.

The course is only 6550 yards from the back tees, and perhaps this represents a greater consensus approval for shorter courses, despite the fact the modern ball travels further than it did twenty years ago.

John--What you are seeing with this is the effect of the media on "hidden gems".  And North Berwick did not get there until 2007!!

I first saw North Berwick and Royal Dornoch in 1981...and after returning to NY asked every golfer I knew what they knew about these courses...did not find a soul who had ever heard of either.  In retrospect I now realize that back then very very very few US golfers knew about any GB&I courses except for  the then Open Rota courses and Sunningdale. 

Royal Dornoch was "discovered" as a result of Tom Watson's first visit in the early 80's (I thought in '81 but Wikipedia says '82)...and being quoted by Herb Warren Wind saying something like "Never had so much fun playing golf in my life". 

There are 216 courses that have ever been on a GM World Top 100 list (or Top 50...as the first three lists  in '79 '81 and '83 were top 50).  And of the 216...only 41 are in GB&I (19.0%).  Through say 1999, only 28 from GB&I had made it...out of a total of 162 or 17.3%.  So a number its of courses got "discovered" by raters (probably from USA) after 1999...because GB&I has probably had less in the way of new course construction than any other world region in the century...so most of the 13 additional ones added 2001-23 were built before 1999 (the only "new" ones among the 13 are Kingsbarns (opened 1999), Trump Aberdeen, St Patrick's, Castle Stuart, and Ardfin.  The other 7 were "undiscovered" over the past 25 years (North Berwick, Swindley Forest, Prestwick, St George's Hill, Waterville...which was renovated I think in the 90's, Machrihanish, and Royal Cinque Ports).


People are traveling more and further than ever before...and this trend continues post COVID
« Last Edit: November 21, 2023, 09:06:18 PM by Paul Rudovsky »

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #79 on: November 21, 2023, 07:38:33 PM »
Stewart arrive on Sunday, Monday or Tuesday and you can play Princes, Sandwich and Deal in 4ball format.



Cave Nil Vino

Stewart Abramson

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #80 on: November 21, 2023, 08:50:19 PM »
Stewart arrive on Sunday, Monday or Tuesday and you can play Princes, Sandwich and Deal in 4ball format.


 Hi Mark, I must not have been clear. I was referring to Rye as requiring foursomes. The others that we played we played 4 ball. I was going to contact you when I was there to see if we could take you out for a drink, but after a 36 hole day, by the time we finished dinner we just went back to the Princes Lodge to crash.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2023, 08:51:57 PM by Stewart Abramson »

Sean_A

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #81 on: November 21, 2023, 10:00:14 PM »

North Berwick is now ranked #30 in the world.  I knew that it has made a sustained climb up the list in recent years, so I checked an older version of the Golf list to verify.  In 2001, North Berwick was not on Golf's Top 100 in the World list.  Given there are many new courses (16-17 based on a quick count, with 4 new courses ahead of NB) on this list, that's quite a change in perception.

I played it once and was very impressed.  The front nine was not as visually dramatic as the back nine, but it played beautifully.

The course is only 6550 yards from the back tees, and perhaps this represents a greater consensus approval for shorter courses, despite the fact the modern ball travels further than it did twenty years ago.

John--What you are seeing with this is the effect of the media on "hidden gems".  And North Berwick did not get there until 2007!!

I first saw North Berwick and Royal Dornoch in 1981...and after returning to NY asked every golfer I knew what they knew about these courses...did not find a soul who had ever heard of either.  In retrospect I now realize that back then very very very few US golfers knew about any GB&I courses except for  the then Open Rota courses and Sunningdale. 

Royal Dornoch was "discovered" as a result of Tom Watson's first visit in the early 80's (I thought in '81 but Wikipedia says '82)...and being quoted by Herb Warren Wind saying something like "Never had so much fun playing golf in my life". 

There are 216 courses that have ever been on a GM World Top 100 list (or Top 50...as the first three lists  in '79 '81 and '83 were top 50).  And of the 216...only 41 are in GB&I (19.0%).  Through say 1999, only 28 from GB&I had made it...out of a total of 162 or 17.3%.  So a number its of courses got "discovered" by raters (probably from USA) after 1999...because GB&I has probably had less in the way of new course construction than any other world region in the century...so most of the 13 additional ones added 2001-23 were built before 1999 (the only "new" ones among the 13 are Kingsbarns (opened 1999), Trump Aberdeen, St Patrick's, Castle Stuart, and Ardfin.  The other 7 were "undiscovered" over the past 25 years (North Berwick, Swindley Forest, Prestwick, St George's Hill, Waterville...which was renovated I think in the 90's, Machrihanish, and Royal Cinque Ports).


People are traveling more and further than ever before...and this trend continues post COVID


Paul


In the 90s you really needed to read books to find out about GB&I courses. I really only figured this out living south of London for a time in 87 and 88. It was like finding Aladinís cave. But seeing some of the southeast England courses sent me to bookshops. By the time I started visiting GB&I regularly in 1990 I read several books. Like you experienced, nobody in Detroit knew any of the courses I mentioned. Looking back ten years later it made sense because not many copies of golf books were sold. Then rankings became huge and books werenít really necessary for the vast majority of tourists hitting big guns. I still think a few more courses that are currently ignored will make non-world top 100 lists.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Iona, Tobermory, Minehead & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Mark Pearce

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #82 on: November 22, 2023, 06:39:48 AM »
I kind of know what you mean. It doesn't have the external views that some courses have however for a keen linksman it's a lovely looking course.
This, I love the look of Deal (and also StAB, mentioned above).  They look like....great golf courses.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #83 on: November 22, 2023, 06:50:11 AM »
Deal is the kind of course that fades in your memory somewhat because it only has a few holes that stand out as being different.  The same could be said for Portmarnock. 
Gosh, shows how differently someone with your experience sees a course compared to me.  I think of Deal as having a number of strikingly memorable holes (3, 6, 12 and 16 in particular are very "different").  I don't have a particularly good memory for courses but after only two visits I reckon I remember more of deal than the vast majority of courses I have played.




Mark Pearce

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #84 on: November 22, 2023, 06:54:50 AM »
If this thread makes me realise one thing, it's that I need to get back to Deal.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #85 on: November 22, 2023, 07:04:05 AM »

I kind of know what you mean. It doesn't have the external views that some courses have however for a keen linksman it's a lovely looking course.

To please the instagram crowd the Tees on 7 and 9 have been raised to provide sea views.
On the 9th it does improves the hole, as it more clearly shows the challenge of the revised bunkering.

However its the fairway movement that embeds itself most firmly in my memory. I like to warn my guests that on 15 the further you drive the ball, the more likelihood of tough uneven stance.  I got the impression during this years Open Qualifying, that some pro's  were laying up a bit.  Grace was one, looked like he had a 2 iron into a two club wind which he put to 10'.  He Qualified.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #86 on: November 22, 2023, 08:11:56 AM »



Paul


In the 90s you really needed to read books to find out about GB&I courses. I really only figured this out living south of London for a time in 87 and 88. It was like finding Aladinís cave. But seeing some of the southeast England courses sent me to bookshops. By the time I started visiting GB&I regularly in 1990 I read several books. Like you experienced, nobody in Detroit knew any of the courses I mentioned. Looking back ten years later it made sense because not many copies of golf books were sold. Then rankings became huge and books werenít really necessary for the vast majority of tourists hitting big guns. I still think a few more courses that are currently ignored will make non-world top 100 lists.


Ciao

Sean--

Totally agree about needing books back then.  But I think this process is just in its infancy.  Remember...there are something like 38,000 courses out there and my guess is that collectively the GCA crown is familiar with maybe 10,000 and the "rater crowd" is maybe familiar with 2,000.  Lots more  than "a few" to be discovered IMHO.


Sean_A

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #87 on: November 22, 2023, 08:42:40 AM »


You are right in a global scaleÖas more individual country rankings are developed. But I was thinking primarily about North America and GB&I.

Ciao


Paul


In the 90s you really needed to read books to find out about GB&I courses. I really only figured this out living south of London for a time in 87 and 88. It was like finding Aladinís cave. But seeing some of the southeast England courses sent me to bookshops. By the time I started visiting GB&I regularly in 1990 I read several books. Like you experienced, nobody in Detroit knew any of the courses I mentioned. Looking back ten years later it made sense because not many copies of golf books were sold. Then rankings became huge and books werenít really necessary for the vast majority of tourists hitting big guns. I still think a few more courses that are currently ignored will make non-world top 100 lists.


Ciao

Sean--

Totally agree about needing books back then.  But I think this process is just in its infancy.  Remember...there are something like 38,000 courses out there and my guess is that collectively the GCA crown is familiar with maybe 10,000 and the "rater crowd" is maybe familiar with 2,000.  Lots more  than "a few" to be discovered IMHO.
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Iona, Tobermory, Minehead & Cruden Bay St Olaf

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #88 on: November 22, 2023, 11:54:27 AM »

North Berwick is now ranked #30 in the world.  I knew that it has made a sustained climb up the list in recent years, so I checked an older version of the Golf list to verify.  In 2001, North Berwick was not on Golf's Top 100 in the World list.  Given there are many new courses (16-17 based on a quick count, with 4 new courses ahead of NB) on this list, that's quite a change in perception.

I played it once and was very impressed.  The front nine was not as visually dramatic as the back nine, but it played beautifully.

The course is only 6550 yards from the back tees, and perhaps this represents a greater consensus approval for shorter courses, despite the fact the modern ball travels further than it did twenty years ago.

John--What you are seeing with this is the effect of the media on "hidden gems".  And North Berwick did not get there until 2007!!

I first saw North Berwick and Royal Dornoch in 1981...and after returning to NY asked every golfer I knew what they knew about these courses...did not find a soul who had ever heard of either.  In retrospect I now realize that back then very very very few US golfers knew about any GB&I courses except for  the then Open Rota courses and Sunningdale. 

Royal Dornoch was "discovered" as a result of Tom Watson's first visit in the early 80's (I thought in '81 but Wikipedia says '82)...and being quoted by Herb Warren Wind saying something like "Never had so much fun playing golf in my life". 

There are 216 courses that have ever been on a GM World Top 100 list (or Top 50...as the first three lists  in '79 '81 and '83 were top 50).  And of the 216...only 41 are in GB&I (19.0%).  Through say 1999, only 28 from GB&I had made it...out of a total of 162 or 17.3%.  So a number its of courses got "discovered" by raters (probably from USA) after 1999...because GB&I has probably had less in the way of new course construction than any other world region in the century...so most of the 13 additional ones added 2001-23 were built before 1999 (the only "new" ones among the 13 are Kingsbarns (opened 1999), Trump Aberdeen, St Patrick's, Castle Stuart, and Ardfin.  The other 7 were "undiscovered" over the past 25 years (North Berwick, Swindley Forest, Prestwick, St George's Hill, Waterville...which was renovated I think in the 90's, Machrihanish, and Royal Cinque Ports).


People are traveling more and further than ever before...and this trend continues post COVID


Paul


In the 90s you really needed to read books to find out about GB&I courses. I really only figured this out living south of London for a time in 87 and 88. It was like finding Aladinís cave. But seeing some of the southeast England courses sent me to bookshops. By the time I started visiting GB&I regularly in 1990 I read several books. Like you experienced, nobody in Detroit knew any of the courses I mentioned. Looking back ten years later it made sense because not many copies of golf books were sold. Then rankings became huge and books werenít really necessary for the vast majority of tourists hitting big guns. I still think a few more courses that are currently ignored will make non-world top 100 lists.


Ciao

Hi Paul and Sean,

Just a quick note thanking you for adding a little color to my comment.  North Berwick has leapfrogged at least 75 other great courses in the past 20 years.

My first book about Golf Courses was probably a Golf Digest book called something like "The 100 Best Courses...and Then Some."  Maybe I acquired it in the early 1970s, and it was just starting to scratch the surface of the hidden gems.  A fuzzy picture of Prairie Dunes was in there, but no mention of Crystal Downs yet.  Best-of lists for public and university courses were crude and incomplete.

Finding hidden gems that resonate with others is a feather in the cap of a critic.

Jim Hoak

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #89 on: November 22, 2023, 12:29:15 PM »
Yale to top 100 after Hanse renovation?  Hope so!  At least top 100 in US.
It's time for this masterpiece to move beyond its perennial place as only the top college course.  It should be seen as more than that as it once was.
After this work and recent fundraising, the course will be maintained better.  And it will be repositioned as a national daily fee course, not only as a local and university course. 
I look forward to all this.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #90 on: November 22, 2023, 01:45:51 PM »
If this thread makes me realise one thing, it's that I need to get back to Deal.


Mark itís been far too long since we played as well, find a couple of days and come and see us.
Cave Nil Vino

Mark Pearce

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #91 on: November 23, 2023, 09:45:00 AM »
If this thread makes me realise one thing, it's that I need to get back to Deal.


Mark itís been far too long since we played as well, find a couple of days and come and see us.
Thanks, Mark.  I'll have a look at Spring dates.

Cal Seifert

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #92 on: November 23, 2023, 09:57:17 AM »
Yale to top 100 after Hanse renovation?  Hope so!  At least top 100 in US.
It's time for this masterpiece to move beyond its perennial place as only the top college course.  It should be seen as more than that as it once was.
After this work and recent fundraising, the course will be maintained better.  And it will be repositioned as a national daily fee course, not only as a local and university course. 
I look forward to all this.


Seeing that Yale was in the Golf Magazine top 100 world list a few years ago, and how most courses move up highly after restorations. It's probably a pretty safe bet it will enter the list.

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #93 on: November 23, 2023, 10:14:06 AM »


Hi Paul and Sean,

Just a quick note thanking you for adding a little color to my comment.  North Berwick has leapfrogged at least 75 other great courses in the past 20 years.

My first book about Golf Courses was probably a Golf Digest book called something like "The 100 Best Courses...and Then Some."  Maybe I acquired it in the early 1970s, and it was just starting to scratch the surface of the hidden gems.  A fuzzy picture of Prairie Dunes was in there, but no mention of Crystal Downs yet.  Best-of lists for public and university courses were crude and incomplete.

Finding hidden gems that resonate with others is a feather in the cap of a critic.


John--

I absolutely remember that book...but right now I am in Pinehurst and my copy of the book is in Boston >:( .  And I agree...I think it was first published in the early or at latest the mid 70's.  What I remember most was a photo from a chopper or small plane from above and just south of the Shinnecock clubhouse stretching north all the way across Peconic Bay.  Back in those days Shinnie had fairways with grass 3/4" long, flyer lies, and worlds slowest greens (or close to slowest)...but world class "bones".  I think that photo woke the world up about Shinnie and the transformation really took hold w the '77 Walker Cup.


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