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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2023, 10:33:30 PM »
Evidence points to the possibility that the restoration of Pinehurst #2 is a failure. Asking guests to disregard the most common rules of golf for the aesthetic of waste is one itself.


I haven't played it since the restoration, so I'm not necessarily pro or con, but...
Which common rules of golf does it ask you to disregard?


You can ground your club and take practice swings in bunkers. In an effort to speed up play.


Common sense doesn’t fit with taking practice swings in bunkers speeding up play. The real message is to improve your lie in a waste bunker so you have a nice day. And possibly play faster with fewer strokes. The waste areas do not work in a resort setting of massive success. The course played better with grass.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 10:38:41 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2023, 11:40:51 PM »

Having just spent 15 minutes of my life that I will never get back,
Join the club.   ;D
I don't particularly like Golf Magazines attribution where numerous people are listed, even for restorations. If we use whenever someone's name is listed we have well over 100 credits. Worked on and designed are two different things and we don't really want to open up this can of worms again. A polarizing topic. I will concede that Colt had several others he co designed I just took the original. 

"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2023, 02:36:22 AM »
Evidence points to the possibility that the restoration of Pinehurst #2 is a failure. Asking guests to disregard the most common rules of golf for the aesthetic of waste is one itself.


I haven't played it since the restoration, so I'm not necessarily pro or con, but...
Which common rules of golf does it ask you to disregard?


You can ground your club and take practice swings in bunkers. In an effort to speed up play.


Common sense doesn’t fit with taking practice swings in bunkers speeding up play. The real message is to improve your lie in a waste bunker so you have a nice day. And possibly play faster with fewer strokes. The waste areas do not work in a resort setting of massive success. The course played better with grass.

No, P2 is far better course without the strangling Bermuda rough lining every fairway.

.Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend & Alnmouth

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2023, 07:18:43 AM »
And Lost Farm not making the cut again. There’s a cigarette paper between Barnbougle, Lost Farm and Cape Wickham so I really can’t see how one is at 36 and the others outside 100.


Of those in the 100 I’ve played I’d put both LF & CW as being better than
Ballybunion
Cruden Bay
Royal Latham
Kingsbarns
Royal Liverpool
Victoria
I'd agree with you on Cruden Bay and Kingsbarns, and bow to your greater knowledge on Victoria (I thought it was really good on my one play - hasn't it had work done recently) and I haven't been to Ballybunion but I don't agree with respect to Lytham and Hoylake.  But I can see arguments both ways.  Those two are almost picture boys for the austere style of Open rota courses and nowhere near as visually appealing or fun as LF.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ben Sims

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2023, 11:03:16 AM »
Had Machrihanish ever been on a world top 100 list?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2023, 11:36:05 AM by Ben Sims »

Cal Seifert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2023, 07:25:46 PM »
Had Machrihanish ever been on a world top 100 list?


According to Planet Golf, the only world top 100 Golf magazine list it was not on since 2007 was in 2021.
https://www.planetgolf.com/courses/scotland/machrihanish-golf-club

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2023, 02:43:58 AM »
Had Machrihanish ever been on a world top 100 list?



According to Planet Golf, the only world top 100 Golf magazine list it was not on since 2007 was in 2021.
https://www.planetgolf.com/courses/scotland/machrihanish-golf-club



Correct.  Machrihanish first appeared on a GM World 100 in 2007 at #97, then in '09 at #92, '11 at #93, '13 @ # 91, '15 @ #93, '17 @ # 88 (high point), '19 @ #93, '21 not on, and this year #97. 

I love it but it its important to realize that since it was in the low 90's back in '09 and '11, the following really great (IMO) new courses have opened...Shanqin Bay, Te Arai-S, Ohoopee, Pt Hardy, The Lido, Cabot Cliffs, St Patricks, and Tara Iti.  So that is 8 courses (an note that I am excluding Lofoten, Les Bordes New, and Ardfin because I do not think they belong on the 100).  But in addition to the 8 I listed the following 4 courses were hugely transformed by superb renovations/restorations since 2007 and jumped into the GM too as a result: Old Town, Cal Club of SF, Sleepy Hollow, and Oak Hill (Oak Hill jumped out in '19 and back in '21 after Green's restoration...Baltusrol made the same out and in move but I did not have it in my 100).  So that is 12 solid additions IMO.

The reality is that these ratings are "relative" to each other and like it or not there are only 100 slots available.  My guess is that all of us have some favorites which we deeply believe belong in the 100...but with the superb work that has happened since Sand Hills ushered in this era in 1995...this type of movement became inevitable. Go back to some of the lists from say 1985 and through the early 2000's and see what included back then...and I am not being critical...there has been an improvement in terms of great courses worldwide that is hard to even describe.

On elast point...some would criticize some of the 12 new entires I list above or other individual course opinions of mine above.  That is fine but it misses the big point...there are just 100 slots and we all will have some disagreements with this our any other list.  That said, do not think that I have ever seen a list as good as this one.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2023, 02:52:50 AM by Paul Rudovsky »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2023, 10:10:41 AM »
To All,


Looking over the Golf Magazine Top 100, one name comes to mind (or maybe really two!):


Tommy Naccarato


Tommy told us long ago Tom Fazio courses were vastly overrated. Was Tommy just ahead of his time? Or is it just what Paul Rudovsky suggests, that is, starting with Sand Hills there have just been a number of really good golf courses built.
Tim Weiman

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2023, 11:21:31 AM »
Tim--


I was not posting or even viewing GCA during Tommy's days here, but agree with his thoughts as outlined in your post.


I recall back in the early 90's or so, some of the golf mags proclaiming a new era in golf architecture (led by Fazio and JWN) where there usually was a single best way to play a hole, which was obvious from the tee but difficult to execute.  The back of my mind said this was wrong...it kills the mental side of the game and that is what makes our game so different and so much fun.  Come 1995 and  yes, Sand Hills killed that new wave hopefully forever.  In recent years I have noted some very fine and different offering designed by both JWN (American Dunes in MI and Reserve at Moonlight Basin in MT) and Fazio (Santapazienza in Brazil).  IMO the final proof is The Lido...clearly brilliant even prior to its beauty growing in with the growth of fescue which will probably require another 2-3 years to happen fully.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2023, 11:26:05 AM »
To All,


Looking over the Golf Magazine Top 100, one name comes to mind (or maybe really two!):


Tommy Naccarato


Tommy told us long ago Tom Fazio courses were vastly overrated. Was Tommy just ahead of his time? Or is it just what Paul Rudovsky suggests, that is, starting with Sand Hills there have just been a number of really good golf courses built.


None of this explains why or how Sand Hills is no longer a top 10 course.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2023, 11:31:25 AM »
To All,


Looking over the Golf Magazine Top 100, one name comes to mind (or maybe really two!):


Tommy Naccarato


Tommy told us long ago Tom Fazio courses were vastly overrated. Was Tommy just ahead of his time? Or is it just what Paul Rudovsky suggests, that is, starting with Sand Hills there have just been a number of really good golf courses built.


A lot of people thought Fazio courses were over rated. It wasn’t a hot take.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend & Alnmouth

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2023, 11:36:39 AM »
Tim--


I was not posting or even viewing GCA during Tommy's days here, but agree with his thoughts as outlined in your post.


I recall back in the early 90's or so, some of the golf mags proclaiming a new era in golf architecture (led by Fazio and JWN) where there usually was a single best way to play a hole, which was obvious from the tee but difficult to execute.  The back of my mind said this was wrong...it kills the mental side of the game and that is what makes our game so different and so much fun.  Come 1995 and  yes, Sand Hills killed that new wave hopefully forever.  In recent years I have noted some very fine and different offering designed by both JWN (American Dunes in MI and Reserve at Moonlight Basin in MT) and Fazio (Santapazienza in Brazil).  IMO the final proof is The Lido...clearly brilliant even prior to its beauty growing in with the growth of fescue which will probably require another 2-3 years to happen fully.
Paul,


Very few golfers have the time to practice and play enough to “execute” as well as one might if one could play golf rather than work for a living.


But, with the right discipline one can think one’s way around a golf course and enjoy the decision making process that can make playing golf so enjoyable…..even if one just gets out on weekends.
Tim Weiman

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2023, 12:29:58 PM »
To All,


Looking over the Golf Magazine Top 100, one name comes to mind (or maybe really two!):


Tommy Naccarato


Tommy told us long ago Tom Fazio courses were vastly overrated. Was Tommy just ahead of his time? Or is it just what Paul Rudovsky suggests, that is, starting with Sand Hills there have just been a number of really good golf courses built.


A lot of people thought Fazio courses were over rated. It wasn’t a hot take.


Ciao
Yeah, was it ever possible that a Fazio course has been underrated?  I may not have been born.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2023, 01:02:15 PM »
To All,


Looking over the Golf Magazine Top 100, one name comes to mind (or maybe really two!):


Tommy Naccarato


Tommy told us long ago Tom Fazio courses were vastly overrated. Was Tommy just ahead of his time? Or is it just what Paul Rudovsky suggests, that is, starting with Sand Hills there have just been a number of really good golf courses built.


A lot of people thought Fazio courses were over rated. It wasn’t a hot take.


Ciao
Sean,


IMO, many golfers thought Fazio courses were great. Much like Tom Doak did with his Confidential Guide, Tommy was an early leader in speaking out on the Internet on topics like the value of aesthetics vs course strategy. He acknowledged that Fazio excelled at the former but argued that he wasn’t so great at the latter.


It really was kind of a hot take at the time.
Tim Weiman

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2023, 03:16:08 PM »
Tim,


Bill Coore or Tom Doak are about aesthetics just as much as Tom Fazio was. Just a different type of aesthetic and working in tandem with different philosophies on design.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2023, 03:25:34 PM »
At least ham handed tactics didn’t result in every course looking exactly the same.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2023, 06:49:13 PM »
Tim,


Bill Coore or Tom Doak are about aesthetics just as much as Tom Fazio was. Just a different type of aesthetic and working in tandem with different philosophies on design.
Ally,


My favorite course of Tom Doak is St Andrews Beach. I don’t think much of the aesthetics. It is all about interesting shots. #2 is Exhibit A.
Tim Weiman

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2023, 02:32:10 AM »
GOLF published #101-126 Sunday afternoon...here they are (full write up avail on GOLF.com)


[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)]Utrecht De Pan 101[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]St. Enodoc GC-Church 102[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]St. George's G&CC 103[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Quaker Ridge GC 104[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]TPC at Sawgrass-Stadium 105[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Cap Rock Ranch 106[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Cape Wickham 107[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Toronto Golf Club 108[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]South Cape Owners Club 109[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Ellerston GC 110[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Walton Heath GC-Old 111
[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Olympic Club-Lake 112[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Peninsula Kingswood-North 113[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Eastward Ho! CC 114[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Valley Club of Montecito 115[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Congressional CC-Blue 116[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Barnbougle Lost Farm 117[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Royal Porthcawl GC 118[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]The Golf Club 119[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Pasatiempo GC 120[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Paraparaumu Beach GC 121[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]The Creek Club 122[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Old Sandwich 123[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Tokyo Golf Club 124[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Royal Adelaide 125[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.847)][/size]Notts GC 126[/color]

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2023, 09:21:10 AM »

Bill Coore or Tom Doak are about aesthetics just as much as Tom Fazio was. Just a different type of aesthetic and working in tandem with different philosophies on design.


I still laugh when I hear people say that Tom Fazio was great at aesthetics.  But, we just have way different tastes.


I have not spent a lot of time thinking about the aesthetics of what we are building for many years, other than things like the elevation of greens or tees and what you will see from them.  Most of the rest of it I have left in the hands of my associates, because they are all really good at it . . . and because I'd rather spend my time on site working on how the holes play, instead of on how they look.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2023, 09:51:01 AM »

Bill Coore or Tom Doak are about aesthetics just as much as Tom Fazio was. Just a different type of aesthetic and working in tandem with different philosophies on design.


I still laugh when I hear people say that Tom Fazio was great at aesthetics.  But, we just have way different tastes.


I have not spent a lot of time thinking about the aesthetics of what we are building for many years, other than things like the elevation of greens or tees and what you will see from them.  Most of the rest of it I have left in the hands of my associates, because they are all really good at it . . . and because I'd rather spend my time on site working on how the holes play, instead of on how they look.

Do you delegated aesthetics 😎.

Tim, enough people were questioning Fazio designs that I heard about it 20+ years ago. Often times, back in the day, Fazio wasn’t mentioned by name, but it was clear to me that by the late 90s that Fazio was one of the firms being kicked against.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend & Alnmouth

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2023, 10:28:15 AM »

Bill Coore or Tom Doak are about aesthetics just as much as Tom Fazio was. Just a different type of aesthetic and working in tandem with different philosophies on design.


I still laugh when I hear people say that Tom Fazio was great at aesthetics.  But, we just have way different tastes.


I have not spent a lot of time thinking about the aesthetics of what we are building for many years, other than things like the elevation of greens or tees and what you will see from them.  Most of the rest of it I have left in the hands of my associates, because they are all really good at it . . . and because I'd rather spend my time on site working on how the holes play, instead of on how they look.


By Tom Doak, I meant Renaissance Golf. The guys building your courses will definitely spend a large amount of time making everything look right. It’s what makes designing detail in the field a better approach than building from detailed plans.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2023, 10:36:25 AM »

By Tom Doak, I meant Renaissance Golf. The guys building your courses will definitely spend a large amount of time making everything look right. It’s what makes designing detail in the field a better approach than building from detailed plans.


Yeah, that's what makes working for me a good gig, they get to contribute things to the finished product!


Likewise, many of the wild and woolly greens I've built over the years were actually the creation of one or another of my associates.  Everyone thinks it's all me, but I just did the first ones that enabled all of them to freestyle.  The cool part is that they don't have to get them past a client, usually, they just have to get them past me and I've got a lot of tolerance for cool greens.


But I do hate that people equate my designs with a certain aesthetic, when I really don't care as much about it as everyone thinks.  My focus is on the shots you'll have to play.  I guess I could fire everyone who works for me and build a much duller-looking course in order to prove this point, but you and maybe three other people in the world would be the only ones who thought that was a positive step!

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2023, 10:46:15 AM »

Bill Coore or Tom Doak are about aesthetics just as much as Tom Fazio was. Just a different type of aesthetic and working in tandem with different philosophies on design.


I still laugh when I hear people say that Tom Fazio was great at aesthetics.  But, we just have way different tastes.


I have not spent a lot of time thinking about the aesthetics of what we are building for many years, other than things like the elevation of greens or tees and what you will see from them.  Most of the rest of it I have left in the hands of my associates, because they are all really good at it . . . and because I'd rather spend my time on site working on how the holes play, instead of on how they look.

Do you delegated aesthetics 😎.

Tim, enough people were questioning Fazio designs that I heard about it 20+ years ago. Often times, back in the day, Fazio wasn’t mentioned by name, but it was clear to me that by the late 90s that Fazio was one of the firms being kicked against.

Ciao
Sean,


I am pretty sure Fazio had greater representation on best courses list in the late 90’s and early 2000’s. Perhaps not on Golf Magazine’s list but certainly on Golf Digest.


His absence on either magazine’s lists is, IMO, noteworthy.
Tim Weiman

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2023, 10:48:08 AM »

Bill Coore or Tom Doak are about aesthetics just as much as Tom Fazio was. Just a different type of aesthetic and working in tandem with different philosophies on design.


I still laugh when I hear people say that Tom Fazio was great at aesthetics.  But, we just have way different tastes.


I have not spent a lot of time thinking about the aesthetics of what we are building for many years, other than things like the elevation of greens or tees and what you will see from them.  Most of the rest of it I have left in the hands of my associates, because they are all really good at it . . . and because I'd rather spend my time on site working on how the holes play, instead of on how they look.

Do you delegated aesthetics 😎.

Tim, enough people were questioning Fazio designs that I heard about it 20+ years ago. Often times, back in the day, Fazio wasn’t mentioned by name, but it was clear to me that by the late 90s that Fazio was one of the firms being kicked against.

Ciao
Sean,


I am pretty sure Fazio had greater representation on best courses list in the late 90’s and early 2000’s. Perhaps not on Golf Magazine’s list but certainly on Golf Digest.


His absence on either magazine’s lists is, IMO, noteworthy.


I am not questioning Fazio's imprint on rankings. Just that many disagreed. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend & Alnmouth

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2023, 10:55:21 AM »
Sean,


Perhaps, but Wild Dunes was very popular in its day and was much more enjoyable before all the condos were built.


In case you were thinking it, I agree the Harbor course certainly had lots of critics.
Tim Weiman

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