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Kevin Pallier

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Golf Magazine World Top100
« on: November 12, 2023, 09:43:47 PM »
I see the latest list is out and circulating - any surprises?


If something should be in - what should be out?


Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2023, 04:48:48 AM »
We have had couple discussions tangential to the list.


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,72382.0.html


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« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 04:50:25 AM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
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Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2023, 05:04:21 AM »
Royal CP coming in at 100 - Chappers will be happy  ;D


Both Sunningdale's up - richly deserved


Does the panel not like Australia? Both Ellerston and CW dropping out  ???





Sean Walsh

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2023, 05:54:27 AM »
And Lost Farm not making the cut again. Thereís a cigarette paper between Barnbougle, Lost Farm and Cape Wickham so I really canít see how one is at 36 and the others outside 100.


Of those in the 100 Iíve played Iíd put both LF & CW as being better than
Ballybunion
Cruden Bay
Royal Latham
Kingsbarns
Royal Liverpool
Victoria




Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2023, 06:09:28 AM »
Itís definitely a list that favours beautiful aesthetics and / or mid-handicapper playability.


If you donít have one of those, youíre in trouble.

Ira Fishman

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2023, 08:04:58 AM »
Ally,


What courses do you think are ranked too low or missing?


I have played around 20 on the list and generally think it is pretty solid as these things go. My own bias is probably to overcorrect so that aesthetics do not overinflueunce my view of a course. I am a mediocre golfer so your point about mid handicap friendly probably influences me. Having said that, the three courses I would have on the list are Yale, Pasatiempo, and Royal Aberdeen, and none of those are a day at the beach. (I would drop Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, and Bandon Dunes among those I have played to make room for them).


Thanks.


Ira

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2023, 08:42:44 AM »
Iím throwing out massive generalisations, IraÖ or to be more specific, a generalised trend.


Thereís no doubt that the austere challenge of many an Open course is no longer en vogue, even if that challenge comes with significant subtlety and strategy and for high level players can even offer more ďfunĒ.


For some players, acres wide fairways actually just remove the enjoyment of executing on 14 shots a round. And for others, the beauty of an RCD or Ballybunion beats the great golf on offer at a Carnoustie or Lytham. Doesnít really make one approach right and one approach wrong.


All swings and roundabouts really. But sexy is in.

Tim Martin

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2023, 08:48:57 AM »
Iím throwing out massive generalisations, IraÖ or to be more specific, a generalised trend.


Thereís no doubt that the austere challenge of many an Open course is no longer en vogue, even if that challenge comes with significant subtlety and strategy and for high level players can even offer more ďfunĒ.


For some players, acres wide fairways actually just remove the enjoyment of executing on 14 shots a round. And for others, the beauty of an RCD or Ballybunion beats the great golf on offer at a Carnoustie or Lytham. Doesnít really make one approach right and one approach wrong.


All swings and roundabouts really. But sexy is in.


Ira-Iím a homer for Yale so I donít disagree. After the Gil Hanse restoration is completed I think it will find itís way onto the list.




Ian Cox

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2023, 09:16:57 AM »
I find the absence of Royal Porthcawl surprising. Iíve played enough on the list to place RP ahead of forty courses and at least an equal to another twenty.
Cheers, Ian

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2023, 09:35:35 AM »
Iíd rather live in a world where Sand Hills is considered top 5 in the eyes of our self appointed experts.

Joe Zucker

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2023, 10:16:24 AM »
I've played a quarter of the list and I would call out three courses as overrates.  I'd drop Whistling Straits from the list. I don't think it's a top 3 course in WI, let alone top 100 in the world.  Baltusrol Lower also seems too high.  I played it this summer and it was much better than expected, but the flat holes in the middle of the round are lacking.  Lastly, I'd say Fishers is too high at top 20.  It's probably a top 10 golf experience in the world, but there are a handful of fairly average holes in my opinion. 

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2023, 10:40:33 AM »
Evidence points to the possibility that the restoration of Pinehurst #2 is a failure. Asking guests to disregard the most common rules of golf for the aesthetic of waste is one itself.

Tim Gallant

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2023, 10:57:27 AM »

Thereís no doubt that the austere challenge of many an Open course is no longer en vogue, even if that challenge comes with significant subtlety and strategy and for high level players can even offer more ďfunĒ.



Ally,


I'd argue the opposite! I wish those courses would keep their 'significant subtlety'. I can't comment on the new Hoylake hole, but the hole it replaced was wonderfully subtle to me. Is its replacement as subtle? Fair enough if these courses present an interesting challenge to the high level players, but I suspect they don't find them all that much fun.


Question: how does Oakmont continue to do well in rankings despite its challenge?

John Blain

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2023, 12:27:35 PM »
Like any ranking list you need to take these things with a grain of salt but at first blush here are a few observations:


SFGC is a bit overrated at #38 and Sleepy Hollow is definitely underrated at #69.


Just my opinion of course but I have played both courses numerous times.


 Also sort of surprised Essex County Club (MA) or Eastward Ho! didn't make the cut but granted it's a world ranking maybe they are not deserving.


Where's Glens Falls?? ;D ;D ;D

Jeff Schley

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2023, 01:00:15 PM »
Interesting stat is that 44 architects have at least 1 course on the list. Including 26 with a single design.
 
Doak
8
MacKenzie
7
OTM
7
C&C
7
Tillinghast
6
Colt
5
Ross
5
Raynor
4
Macdonald
3
Maxwell
3
Alison
3
Dye
3
Hanse
3
Fernie
2
Thomas
2
Park Jr.
2
Simpson
2
Low Jr.
2
Crump
1
Flynn
1
Fownes
1
Wilson
1
Neville
1
Murphy
1
Strath
1
Purves
1
Campbell
1
Robertson
1
Macan
1
Emmet
1
Vardon
1
Pickerman
1
Harrison
1
Leeds
1
Whitman
1
RTJ Sr.
1
Phillips
1
Fream
1
Turner
1
Russell
1
Morris
1
McLay Kidd
1
Nicklaus
1
Hunter
1
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tim Martin

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2023, 01:05:46 PM »

 Also sort of surprised Essex County Club (MA) or Eastward Ho! didn't make the cut but granted it's a world ranking maybe they are not deserving.

Where's Glens Falls?? ;D ;D ;D


John-I donít know which course(s) would get bumped but Essex and Eastward Ho are at least worthy of a mention. Glens Falls is a treat. :)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 05:13:28 PM by Tim Martin »

Anthony Gholz

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2023, 03:02:21 PM »
Jeff: 

Colt 5?  I have it 8 or 9 depending on whether you give him credit for Sunningdale Old as well as New.  Or maybe courses that he is the only architect?  Ie not Pine Valley because of Crump?
Maybe I can't add ... that's also a possibility:)
Anthony
PS on second or third thought I'm going to up it to 10.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 03:08:58 PM by Anthony Gholz »

Sean_A

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2023, 03:12:45 PM »
Jeff: 

Colt 5?  I have it 8 or 9 depending on whether you give him credit for Sunningdale Old as well as New.  Or maybe courses that he is the only architect?  Ie not Pine Valley because of Crump?
Maybe I can't add ... that's also a possibility:)
Anthony
PS on second or third thought I'm going to up it to 10.

How do you tally 8?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Iona, Tobermory, Minehead & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2023, 03:14:45 PM »
I know it's fashionable to hate on The Olympic Club's Lake course, but in no way are Muirfield Village, Bandon Dunes, and Whistling Straits better courses. And we're talking the pre-Hanse restovation work. That version should've remained in the 90-99 range.


The "new version" is a markedly better experience and now equally as playable and architecturally interesting as our Bay Area peers, while maintaining our unique "championship" ethos. So I'd have to slot it in the 35-50 range

Is it an pure restoration? No.
Is it perfect? Definitely not.
Is it World Top 100 worthy? Absolutely

John Blain

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2023, 03:26:05 PM »

 Also sort of surprised Essex County Club (MA) or Eastward Ho! didn't make the cut but granted it's a world ranking maybe they are not deserving.

Where's Glens Falls?? ;D ;D ;D


John-I donít know which course(s) would get bumped but Essex and Eastward Ho are at least worthy of a mention. As for Glens Falls itís one of the most compelling plays in the Ross portfolio.
Hi Tim-
In hindsight maybe a stretch for Essex County and Eastward Ho! but then again Myopia Hunt is in there so what do I know?
Regarding GFCC, growing up in NY's Capital Region I have played there a number of times. I like Glens Falls but probably not as much as most on GCA. It's certainly a very nice membership course, at the very least. But in the pantheon of Ross courses in upstate New York I would put it behind CC of Buffalo, CC of Rochester, Monroe and Oak Hill, both east and west. I know this is considered heresy on this board but it's just my opinion.
The Ross course not far from GFCC that gets literally no respect on GCA is The Sagamore in Bolton Landing. I always thought it to be a very fine mountain course in a great setting. Lots of good holes and a stern test.
Anyway, hope you are well and Happy Thanksgiving.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2023, 03:26:36 PM »
Jeff: 

Colt 5?  I have it 8 or 9 depending on whether you give him credit for Sunningdale Old as well as New.  Or maybe courses that he is the only architect?  Ie not Pine Valley because of Crump?
Maybe I can't add ... that's also a possibility:)
Anthony
PS on second or third thought I'm going to up it to 10.

How do you tally 8?

Ciao


If you credit Colt for Royal Hague, I get fourteen that he worked on.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Anthony Gholz

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2023, 04:06:48 PM »
Sean/Adam:


I was just using the architect names off the list.  Colt 10.  Alison 3  We can discuss several that imo should credit both.  Adam do you give Colt any credit for TOC? Based on his time as their "advisor"


14 you say.  hmmmmm   I'll have to work on my math skills.  And read your new book!

Anthony
« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 04:33:34 PM by Anthony Gholz »

astavrides

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2023, 08:40:12 PM »
Evidence points to the possibility that the restoration of Pinehurst #2 is a failure. Asking guests to disregard the most common rules of golf for the aesthetic of waste is one itself.


I haven't played it since the restoration, so I'm not necessarily pro or con, but...
Which common rules of golf does it ask you to disregard?

Cal Seifert

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2023, 08:51:34 PM »
Evidence points to the possibility that the restoration of Pinehurst #2 is a failure. Asking guests to disregard the most common rules of golf for the aesthetic of waste is one itself.


I haven't played it since the restoration, so I'm not necessarily pro or con, but...
Which common rules of golf does it ask you to disregard?


You can ground your club and take practice swings in bunkers. In an effort to speed up play.

Ira Fishman

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Re: Golf Magazine World Top100
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2023, 09:33:13 PM »
Sean/Adam:


I was just using the architect names off the list.  Colt 10.  Alison 3  We can discuss several that imo should credit both.  Adam do you give Colt any credit for TOC? Based on his time as their "advisor"


14 you say.  hmmmmm   I'll have to work on my math skills.  And read your new book!

Anthony


Having just spent 15 minutes of my life that I will never get back, I went through the GM attribution of architects for the list. In many cases, there is more than one architect credited. But here is what I came up with including joint attribution for architects with more than one credit:


Colt--11
Dr Mac--9
OTM--8
Doak--8
Tillinghast--7
C&C--7
Raynor--6
Ross--5
Simpson--4
Maxwell--4
Hanse/Wagner--4
CBM--3
Alison--3
Dye--3
Thomas--2
Fernie--2
Braid--2
Park Jr--2
Green--2


I am sure that someone will correct my count.


I will note that OTM and Dr. Mac each receive credit for three of the top 10.


If you want to debate attribution, Ran is the one to contact.


Ira

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