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Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: New expanded Handicap system still leaves fundamental issues unaddressed
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2023, 09:26:59 AM »
Quite.  Too many players (and clubs) think that stroke allocation should be a result of the hardness of  hole, rather than the differential between the expected score of a good player and a bad player.  At least for match play.  And it shouldn't matter for stroke play.
That's actually what's recommended by the USGA now - the total difficulty of the hole to par (they use both the scratch and bogey rating).

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/world-handicap-system--education-resources-for-club-administrators/stroke-index-allocation.html

That page has a LOT of information on it. It discusses the old system ("differential between expected score of a good and bad player"). AndÖ people tend to over-value stroke index allocation entirely, because basically as long as, well, I'll just quote it with emphasis added:

Quote
From both USGA and worldwide research, in match play, the stroke index order is not really important in producing equitable results as long as the strokes are spread out, consecutive low strokes are avoided, and low strokes at the beginning or end of each nine are avoided. So, applying the triad concept of using three-hole clusters (with the lowest stroke hole on each nine in the middle of the nine), spreading out low stroke holes, and avoiding consecutive low stroke holes produces a simple but effective method for allocation.


Clubs are free to do what they want, though, and the above is only a guideline.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 09:29:01 AM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Peter Flory

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Re: New expanded Handicap system still leaves fundamental issues unaddressed
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2023, 01:25:12 PM »
I'm continuously baffled by how much people care about handicaps. 

First of all, it's completely obvious that a huge percentage of golfers have fraudulent ones and always will.  We all know those guys.  They aren't even particularly ashamed by it.  If you care about winning a net event, you'll either be perpetually disappointed, or you'll have to rig your own index.  I was at a club once and the same guy would win the net club championship every year.  He was very proud of it and not at all embarrassed. 

Secondly, is it really that great to win something on a net basis?  The only way that I could see that being at all satisfying would be if I had a close friend and we regularly played against each other and wanted to keep it interesting.  But even then, it would just be humoring each other and an overall casual affair. 

My advice is to dial down your care level to the 1 out of 10 range.  Just try to enjoy your rounds or try to actually improve your game.  I think that it's a disease to feel like you have to keep track of every score in casual rounds of golf just so that your handicap is valid.

Rob Marshall

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Re: New expanded Handicap system still leaves fundamental issues unaddressed
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2023, 02:10:20 PM »
I'm continuously baffled by how much people care about handicaps. 

First of all, it's completely obvious that a huge percentage of golfers have fraudulent ones and always will.  We all know those guys.  They aren't even particularly ashamed by it.  If you care about winning a net event, you'll either be perpetually disappointed, or you'll have to rig your own index.  I was at a club once and the same guy would win the net club championship every year.  He was very proud of it and not at all embarrassed. 

Secondly, is it really that great to win something on a net basis?  The only way that I could see that being at all satisfying would be if I had a close friend and we regularly played against each other and wanted to keep it interesting.  But even then, it would just be humoring each other and an overall casual affair. 

My advice is to dial down your care level to the 1 out of 10 range.  Just try to enjoy your rounds or try to actually improve your game.  I think that it's a disease to feel like you have to keep track of every score in casual rounds of golf just so that your handicap is valid.


Agree Peter,
Only thing I really use my handicap for is to benchmark how I'm playing.  What I like is that the GHIN system allows you to enter some rudimentary stats that I like to look at. Averages scores, missing right and left. I find that useful.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.Ē Jimmy Buffett

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New expanded Handicap system still leaves fundamental issues unaddressed
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2023, 03:23:19 PM »
I'm continuously baffled by how much people care about handicaps. 

First of all, it's completely obvious that a huge percentage of golfers have fraudulent ones and always will.  We all know those guys.  They aren't even particularly ashamed by it.  If you care about winning a net event, you'll either be perpetually disappointed, or you'll have to rig your own index.  I was at a club once and the same guy would win the net club championship every year.  He was very proud of it and not at all embarrassed. 

Secondly, is it really that great to win something on a net basis?  The only way that I could see that being at all satisfying would be if I had a close friend and we regularly played against each other and wanted to keep it interesting.  But even then, it would just be humoring each other and an overall casual affair. 

My advice is to dial down your care level to the 1 out of 10 range.  Just try to enjoy your rounds or try to actually improve your game.  I think that it's a disease to feel like you have to keep track of every score in casual rounds of golf just so that your handicap is valid.


Peter,


Youíre certainly entitled to your feelings on this.  But you might go easy on considering keeping track of and posting scores to be a ďdiseaseĒ. 


For those of us that play competitively, an index is a requirement, plain and simple, and thatís true even of club tournaments; no established USGA index, no entry.  I play in some state level tournaments where you have to have a single digit index to get in, even to qualifying rounds. Even in casual play at most courses, games among buddies for a $6 Nassau, or points, or one gross/two net games, not to mention match play, just canít function without indexes.  And I doubt many players would be satisfied with the guy who wanted to participate but considered valid handicaps a disease.


Iím an outlier on this board where endless complaining has become the order of the day; I actually like the GHIN system, and Iím glad that the USGA and the R&A continue to tweak it.  I absolutely, unequivocally disagree with the idea that there is rampant sandbagging and gaming the system; I see VERY little of that, despite having every opportunity to see it if itís out there.  Vanity handicaps are common; sandbagging just isnt.


I also happen to take pride in winning the net division of competitions Iím in; itís one of the truly unique things about this game I love so much in that it gives me, at age 71, a chance to compete against guys that are decades younger and who hit the ball miles farther.  And playing closer to your handicap under the gun than anyone else  is a valid reason to feel some pride.


We have a guy in our regular $6 game who is 86 and can only hit a tee shot 120 or so.  He plays the front tees, and heís getting a lot of shots, and NOBODY begrudges him his winnings. The alternative of gross play only would make him just a lonely old man playing by himself, instead of being part of a group of younger, better players and then sharing a beer and some laughs after.

"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Rob Marshall

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Re: New expanded Handicap system still leaves fundamental issues unaddressed
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2023, 04:33:08 PM »
AG, I know many guys that play in tournaments that require and handicap index in NYS. Scratch tournaments. You look at their Ghin and they may post 1 or 2 scores a year.........Club I'm currently social while waiting to get on the "waitlist" in Fl. current club champion is a +.2. hasn't posted a score since 2021 or 2022. Watched him tee off a few weeks ago and he played with my buddy this week...............



Played in a scratch qualifier a few years ago that required you to be a 5 if I remember correctly. Guy in the group ahead of me shot 110.


The system is great for me because of what I want to get out of it. I post every score with stats. To put guys on an even competitive playing field imo, it's always been a failure. Guys can sit on the couch and post anything they want.

Guys can now get a handicap from par three courses. I guess being able to hit a driver doesn't matter anymore.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.Ē Jimmy Buffett

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New expanded Handicap system still leaves fundamental issues unaddressed
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2023, 05:45:33 PM »
I'm glad somebody is finally teaching Peter a thing or two about how competitive golf works.


I am curious about whether anybody has any feelings on the actual changes being made to the system... I'm pretty sure I hate at least 3 of the 4 changes. This "We'll take your 9 hole score on a par 3 course and use a statistical model to extrapolate what you might very well have shot for 18 holes, and then adjust your differential because scores seemed a little high that day" shit sounds absolutely ridiculous.
"There will always be haters. Thatís just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New expanded Handicap system still leaves fundamental issues unaddressed
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2023, 07:09:07 PM »

Youíre certainly entitled to your feelings on this.  But you might go easy on considering keeping track of and posting scores to be a ďdiseaseĒ. 


The disease part that I'm referring to is when people become a slave to the handicap system.  Not everyone has it, but there are people who feel like they have to enter a score every time they go to the course or they are somehow a cheater.  There are even people who keep track of others and rat them out at the club if they see someone playing and they don't enter a score afterward.

There is a service called Cap Patrol that links to starter sheets and then verifies that members submit a score for every round they play- and theoretically busts them when they don't.  That means that if that member goes out with 7 clubs, hickory clubs, if they play match play and concede holes, etc, they are expected to submit a valid score. 

https://cappatrol.com/

Rob Marshall

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Re: New expanded Handicap system still leaves fundamental issues unaddressed
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2023, 07:52:37 PM »
The problem with Sandbaggers is that they are THIEVES. They are stealing from other players.


Guy at my club was having a great season. Routinely shooting in the 60ís. Someone told me he wasnít posting his scores. Said to him one day. Ryan you didnít post your 68. He looks at me and says ďif I post it I wonít be able to compete with my regular game.  Iíll get killed.Ē He was our handicap chairman. Sandbaggers cheating each other and I canít post a score I play by myself. Game of honor and integrity.

If life gives you limes, make margaritas.Ē Jimmy Buffett

Jay Mickle

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Re: New expanded Handicap system still leaves fundamental issues unaddressed
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2023, 08:06:35 PM »
I played my first medal round in two years this past Sunday. I realized that when I tried to post the score and found that my GHIN had been declared inactive. I believe the USGA has some stipulation in the rules that says you are supposed to try to shoot the best possible score each time you play. Thatís rarely the case with me as I usually only carry seven or eight clubs and Iím very happy to get bogies, and really only putt out with intent when Iím trying to get a birdie or a par. I carry a 16 vanity handicap that I am sure my opponents would not like to see increase. 
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New expanded Handicap system still leaves fundamental issues unaddressed
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2023, 07:01:47 AM »
Donít play with a**holes.


Problem solved.


Iíve never had a bad handicap experience.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New expanded Handicap system still leaves fundamental issues unaddressed
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2023, 08:05:40 AM »

Youíre certainly entitled to your feelings on this.  But you might go easy on considering keeping track of and posting scores to be a ďdiseaseĒ. 


The disease part that I'm referring to is when people become a slave to the handicap system.  Not everyone has it, but there are people who feel like they have to enter a score every time they go to the course or they are somehow a cheater.  There are even people who keep track of others and rat them out at the club if they see someone playing and they don't enter a score afterward.

There is a service called Cap Patrol that links to starter sheets and then verifies that members submit a score for every round they play- and theoretically busts them when they don't.  That means that if that member goes out with 7 clubs, hickory clubs, if they play match play and concede holes, etc, they are expected to submit a valid score. 

https://cappatrol.com/


Then donít pay the fee, or keep an index, or ever play in any form of net competition; problem solved. 


You are advocating less accurate handicaps by selective posting, and also seem to consider handicap committees and peer review to be somehow too authoritarian.  I think youíre swimming upstream.



"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New expanded Handicap system still leaves fundamental issues unaddressed
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2023, 08:24:45 AM »
Donít play with a**holes.


Problem solved.


Iíve never had a bad handicap experience.


Agreed, 100%.


Hereís a stat to consider.  The Carolinas Golf Association has a massive interclub competition, with under 55, 55+, and 65+ teams. Each team plays 6 matches against other clubs, with 4 pairs on each team in strict handicap order.  So 16 players in each match. 32 teams in each division make the playoffs.  AND in each individual match, there is a point at stake for all 18 holes, plus two bonus points for win ing the matcch; the team match is worth 80 points, so there is no way to take a dive on the last few holes to intentionally keep your index high. Really, itís a pretty incredible program.


Scoring is on Golf Genius, and each captain keeps a copy of the scorecards for the rest of the season; the home captain submits the scores to GHIN the same day of the match, so thereís no real path to cooking the books.  The CGA also keeps an Exceptional Score list, and players who make that list see their indexes lowered by either 1 or 2 strokes FOR THE NEXT 12 MONTHS of interclub play.


SoÖ
That comes out to over 15,000 rounds for the Interclub season, playoffs included.  There are 66 names on the Exceptional Score list, and that comes out to be less than 1% of the interclub rounds that are true examples of sandbagging.


The angst over sandbagging here, though isnít the weird thing.  The weird part of this is that there is a constant drumbeat about sandbagging, AND a constant drumbeat against things like peer review, requiring all rounds to be posted IF you maintain an index and so on.


Why, itís like weíre a bunch of grumpy old men just looking for something to bitch aboutÖ



"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Ken Moum

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Re: New expanded Handicap system still leaves fundamental issues unaddressed
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2023, 10:07:50 AM »
Not unusual for a 20 handicap to shoot a net 62.
Yes it is.  It is just a bit less unusual than for a 10 handicap, and substantially more unusual than a scratch player.


http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html


The truth is, since the change in the system that, as Eric says, bakes in par, scores in the low 60s have almost completely disappeared from the net competitions I have played in.


Before that, net scores that were 2 or 3 under never had a chance, now they do.


My little group plays either Stableford or low net once or twice a week, and it used to take over 40 points, or or mid-60s to win, and lately it's 38 points or 2 under par will win.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Jason Topp

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Re: New expanded Handicap system still leaves fundamental issues unaddressed
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2023, 07:21:21 PM »
I find the biggest variable in handicap validity is based on the rules the player normally follows.  If people are hitting two balls off the first tee, picking up three foot putts and dropping from the wrong spot for water hazards, things are not going to go well when playing in a competition or with a significant wager on the line.   


The best way to sandbag is to play stroke play, follow the rules and play a bunch of different courses, preferably set up for tournament play.  Some people play that way in the US, but not many.  Others play for a lot of money which tends to eliminate social niceties related to rule violations.


If you play some different way, recognize you will be at a disadvantage in net competitions, realize life may be more enjoyable with that disadvantage and buy your own tube socks rather than using the shop credit you would have gotten in the net club championship. 




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