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jeffwarne

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Centipede
« on: October 21, 2023, 10:22:24 AM »
 Zac Blair has been posting incredibly attractive pictures of the Tree Farm which highligh liberal use of centipede roughs.(and other excellent texture inducing native work)
They provide amazing texture and really make the course pop in the fall season.
It's also a highly playable surface where mowed.
When I worked at Long Cove in the late 80s they also had centipede which provided similar texture and it looked amazing in its early magazine photos,climbing as high as 19 on GD lists.


By the time I  got there in '88 they had gone to cart paths only, under the theory that the centipede couldn't take the cart traffic.
But the ironic part was that by using cart paths, traffic was especially concentrated walking from cart path to green and the turf got really dicey around the greens especially at pinch points and or from pin high near the path to the green.
Eventually they removed it all in the 90's replacing it with Bermuda which provided FAR less visual texture and contrast. But it stood up far better to foot traffic.




Is Centipede more durable now?
In my limited experience it certainly is a slow grower.(a good thing in many ways)
Or is it merely a grass that works best at walking courses, or those designed to better evenly distribute or avoid  foot and cart traffic?


The recent pictures of The Tree Farm are absolutely stunning and I hope that the centipede is a lasting feature of the course.


Hopefully Zac or Nick Roth sees this and chimes in.
Bravo on the presentation of the course so early in its history.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2023, 12:20:04 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David_Tepper

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Ben Sims

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2023, 11:43:39 AM »
Itís an interesting choice for a number of reasons. Harken back to turf class and I think I remember centipede (and its distant cousin St Augustine) being very good for sandy soils in the south. I think itís relatively shade tolerate as well (but not nearly to the degree of the various st Augustine cultivars).


The most interesting thing about centipede that I remember is it doesnít go dormant. So in theory it should stay relatively green in winter. But that makes it susceptible to winter damage.


Depending on how TF feels about overseeding fairways and painting greens, the look would be very cool.

jeffwarne

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2023, 12:27:04 PM »
https://www.pennington.com/all-products/grass-seed/resources/all-you-need-to-know-about-centipede-grass


Thanks.
Kind've confirms what I thought I knew.
Not great in high traffic, slow grower.
It looks great though.


The Tree Farm is walking, so hopefully the traffic is spread out mostly randomly.
I'm sure they will make whatever adjustments needed as it all evolves.
Long Cove was VERY high traffic from high play, and when doing the initial grassing scheme, I'm sure it never occurred to them that the play would be cart path only, leaving everyone approaching the green from the exact same cartpath side and place.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2023, 04:28:00 PM »
We used a lot of centipede in the roughs at Pinehurst in order to prevent washouts in the native areas . . . the runoff from fairways causes washouts unless there is good turf cover on the slope.  This shouldn't see a lot of foot traffic so it should hold up okay.


It seems to be more of a Carolinas thing.  I suggested it as a possibility for our current project in Florida, too, but for whatever reason, it's not seen as a good option down there.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2023, 06:30:09 PM »
I have only played it a couple of times and hated it. I think Debordieu Club even took it out.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Rob Marshall

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2023, 07:26:56 PM »
Is all the rough centipede? At my club when we did our bunker renovation the grass used for the bunker faces and new surrounds was I believe turf type tall fescue. It would be fine if used for all surrounds but itís only where new bunkers went or old ones came out. Now we have two types of grass around the same green. One much more difficult than the other. Looking at pictures of centipede it looks like itís a thick tough grass.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.Ē Jimmy Buffett

jeffwarne

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2023, 09:05:32 AM »
Is all the rough centipede? At my club when we did our bunker renovation the grass used for the bunker faces and new surrounds was I believe turf type tall fescue. It would be fine if used for all surrounds but itís only where new bunkers went or old ones came out. Now we have two types of grass around the same green. One much more difficult than the other. Looking at pictures of centipede it looks like itís a thick tough grass.


I haven't been there this year, but there's not much rough-large fairway areas bleeding into native sandy and/or centipede areas.It seems to me that the centipede is more for stabilization in off fairway areas as they bleed into native   and to provide visual contrast?
But again, I'm just looking at pictures.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2023, 05:59:21 AM »
We used a lot of centipede in the roughs at Pinehurst in order to prevent washouts in the native areas . . . the runoff from fairways causes washouts unless there is good turf cover on the slope.  This shouldn't see a lot of foot traffic so it should hold up okay.


It seems to be more of a Carolinas thing.  I suggested it as a possibility for our current project in Florida, too, but for whatever reason, it's not seen as a good option down there.


While not being used as a uniform rough, centipede is most certainly being used for out of play areas, chunked areas, "islands" in bunkers, lake banks & other areas on several south Florida golf courses. (recent)
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2023, 12:56:44 PM »
Itís.certainly a trend in south - itís desirable because itís a slow growing ďnativeĒ that is playable which is hard to find in warm season regions. But slow grow means slow to recover which means canít out compete native ďweedsĒ


Canít take traffic.
Needs to be dry
Not a dense root zone so good in some areas for erosion control, but not as good as Bahia or Bermuda if volume and velocity of water is high.
Doesnít recover from nematode damage. 


My take is a lot gets planted, and a lot of it is not there after a few years. 


ward peyronnin

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2023, 03:13:02 PM »
I began playing the Dye course at Colleton River last year. We still have a very extant centipede rough and I find ir delightful even tho I have transitioned to a cartballer.Although it is not the same, playing out of these roughs really brings to mind the enjoyable wispy UK rough areas ; it is certainly more a playable, and ie enjoyable, experience than bermuda. I don't think it requires as much mowing and this time of the year the red seedheads are quite attractive, even cheerful, if one can deem rough cheerful
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2023, 06:42:08 PM »
Just to be certain we are all on the same page. Here are two pictures of centipede. I find it unplayable.


[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)][/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)][/size][/color]
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

ward peyronnin

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2023, 07:18:26 PM »
All i can say is those pictures are not the centipede I play almost every week and ride past multiple signs stating " Do not drive through the Centipede". Please refer to Mahaffey's post that refers to it as playable
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2023, 08:15:18 PM »
All i can say is those pictures are not the centipede I play almost every week and ride past multiple signs stating " Do not drive through the Centipede". Please refer to Mahaffey's post that refers to it as playable


Thatís why I wanted to post a couple of pictures. This is the only Centipede Iíve played. I donít have to refer to his post.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2023, 08:07:32 AM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Centipede
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2023, 03:17:55 AM »
I would like to know why anyone would plant it on a golf course? I cannot think of 1 legitimate reason that would make centipedegrass a valid option. A lawn or landscaped area sure, but golf???...no way!
ďThereís links golf, then everything else.Ē

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Centipede
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2023, 08:29:29 AM »
I would like to know why anyone would plant it on a golf course? I cannot think of 1 legitimate reason that would make centipedegrass a valid option. A lawn or landscaped area sure, but golf???...no way!


As mentioned, Pete Dyed used it in several places (Long Cove, CR Dye...) & it most certainly minimized maintenance in terms of mowing. Considering his out of play shaping, he could be shape steeper & jarring shapes, knowing it may only need to be mowing 2x a month, 6-7 months out of the year. Look at Old Barwell & where its used-Steep faces, out of play areas. It also offers some great texture & contrast to the standard bermudagrass. There are not a lot of great options for rough with bermudagrass.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Centipede
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2023, 09:18:27 PM »
I would like to know why anyone would plant it on a golf course? I cannot think of 1 legitimate reason that would make centipedegrass a valid option. A lawn or landscaped area sure, but golf???...no way!


As mentioned, Pete Dyed used it in several places (Long Cove, CR Dye...) & it most certainly minimized maintenance in terms of mowing. Considering his out of play shaping, he could be shape steeper & jarring shapes, knowing it may only need to be mowing 2x a month, 6-7 months out of the year. Look at Old Barwell & where its used-Steep faces, out of play areas. It also offers some great texture & contrast to the standard bermudagrass. There are not a lot of great options for rough with bermudagrass.
Why not Zoysia matrella roughs? The newest varieties of matrella are out of this world good.
ďThereís links golf, then everything else.Ē

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Centipede
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2023, 05:37:36 AM »
I would like to know why anyone would plant it on a golf course? I cannot think of 1 legitimate reason that would make centipedegrass a valid option. A lawn or landscaped area sure, but golf???...no way!


As mentioned, Pete Dye used it in several places (Long Cove, CR Dye...) & it most certainly minimized maintenance in terms of mowing. Considering his out of play shaping, he could be shape steeper & jarring shapes, knowing it may only need to be mowing 2x a month, 6-7 months out of the year. Look at Old Barwell & where its used-Steep faces, out of play areas. It also offers some great texture & contrast to the standard bermudagrass. There are not a lot of great options for rough with bermudagrass.
Why not Zoysia matrella roughs? The newest varieties of matrella are out of this world good.


I'm not sure they would fair any better for roughs & probably have some environmentally issues making it more difficult to maintain. They also don't cast that brownish/tan color that centipede does.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jason Topp

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2023, 06:22:58 PM »

I apparently do not know how to post photos anymore.  Maybe this link will work.  Here is how it looked this weekend. 

https://flic.kr/p/2pfyeNN

Stewart Abramson

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2023, 08:04:12 AM »
Here is Jason's photo


SC2023 by Jason Topp, on Flickr

Jason Topp

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2023, 03:19:31 PM »
Thanks Stewart.  I would love to find out how to do that. My efforts based on memoray of using the

At least at this time of year, the grass provided a nice visual contrast to the relatively dormant fairways and was not a bad playing surface for such areas.  It was easy to find a ball, possible to hit a decent shot from the stuff and predicting the way the ball flew was a bit of a guess.  I am not sure how the stuff changes with the seasons but if it plays similarly it is pretty ideal - little hassle for most of us and posing a problem for the good player.

David Wuthrich

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2023, 04:58:14 PM »
Was just at White Oak in Florida last week and they had Centipede rough.  It looked awesome and played nicely.  Was just in it a little too much!  ;D

jeffwarne

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Re: Centipede
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2023, 07:07:58 AM »
Update:
Having now played The Tree Farm and Old Barnwell this season, I can report the centipede looks and plays fantastic.
It(when sodded) also provides quick stabilization from erosion.
It also provides a seamless, attractive, playable transition into less playable native areas.
It provides great texture and is highly playable, unlike bermuda rough which becomes very hard to even find a ball if it gets much above two inces, and provides little contrast to fairways once dormant.
No doubt over time centipede will wear in certain places, but both places have the budgets to replace/repair/reconfigure as needed in pinch points, and as walking courses will have less vehicle traffic to deal with.
As Don points out, it may have drawbacks over time due to its slow growing nature and lack of tolerance for traffic, but it seems a great solution for high end courses to achieve a rapid mature and contrasted/textured look.
What's old is new again.



"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Centipede
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2023, 08:59:40 AM »
Update:
Having now played The Tree Farm and Old Barnwell this season, I can report the centipede looks and plays fantastic.
It(when sodded) also provides quick stabilization from erosion.
It also provides a seamless, attractive, playable transition into less playable native areas.
It provides great texture and is highly playable, unlike bermuda rough which becomes very hard to even find a ball if it gets much above two inces, and provides little contrast to fairways once dormant.
No doubt over time centipede will wear in certain places, but both places have the budgets to replace/repair/reconfigure as needed in pinch points, and as walking courses will have less vehicle traffic to deal with.
As Don points out, it may have drawbacks over time due to its slow growing nature and lack of tolerance for traffic, but it seems a great solution for high end courses to achieve a rapid mature and contrasted/textured look.
What's old is new again.
Jeff,
   I thought the centipede looked and played very well at Old Barnwell this past weekend. The course was the surprise of the year for me. Kudos to the entire team at OB on a job well done.

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