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Paul Carey

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How close is too close?
« on: October 05, 2023, 07:19:11 PM »
Iím a member at a club and they want to put a new building behind the 9th green.  They are proposing about 45 feet behind the green. I think itís too close. 


The building will have activity regularly such as carts and staff on the first floor and members on the upper floors.  The hole is about 410 from the members tees and 430 from the back tees.


Any thoughts on what the right distance might be?  I know Tom Doak often mentions insurance issues if buildings or other golfers are in the potential field of play.


Any thought from you guys would be helpful. 


Thanks


Paul

Daryl David

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2023, 07:53:42 PM »
Way too close. Better issue helmets to the staff on the first floor.

Randy Thompson

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2023, 09:29:20 PM »
150 feet minimum from the center of the green. 45 feet? Sounds like a typical board without any professional guidance.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2023, 09:29:38 PM »
I see no problem if you put a very tall net about 30 feet behind the green, kind of like you sometimes see on the sides of driving ranges.

Keith Phillips

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2023, 09:46:32 PM »
45 feet - seems very generous!  Check out #9 at Plainfield or #18 at Troon...those aren't just 'buildings' they are the clubhouses.  Likely less than 1% of golfers overshoot a green by 15 yards.

mike_beene

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2023, 11:35:38 PM »
But the problem is bladed wedges and airmailed bunker shotsóthe two times regular golfers go long

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2023, 01:26:37 AM »
I guess the question is for what reason have they chosen 45 feet?

Jim OíKane

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2023, 02:48:57 AM »
Whenever the other person tells you it is.

Mike_Clayton

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2023, 03:51:58 AM »
Woking 14 - a par 5 - the back of the green is about 20 feet to the clubhouse. It's the closest I've seen and it seems to have been ok for a century.

Mark Pearce

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2023, 04:01:27 AM »
Woking 14 - a par 5 - the back of the green is about 20 feet to the clubhouse. It's the closest I've seen and it seems to have been ok for a century.
Quite.  The clubhouse at Northumberland GC is a similar distance from the clubhouse.  It's not uncommon for balls to end up (OOB) on the seated area and I have on one occasion been sitting inside the club when a ball has come in through the open door with some pace and bounced around under our table.


No-one thinks it's a problem.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2023, 07:35:08 AM »
I was recently asked to design and build a practice putting green that was about that distance from the ninth green. To do so would be a mistake. I am sure that somewhere there are putting greens that distance from other greens but examples of past mistakes donīt justify or make it correct. Our first responsibility should be for the safety of the golfing public. Fifty years ago I started my career working on a maintaince crew and I got hit in the head with a golf and it knocked me out. Not fun! Anyways, I resigned!

Jim_Coleman

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2023, 07:47:11 AM »
    I think the clubhouse at Philly Cricket canít be more than 50í to the right of the second green. No windows there, though.

Niall C

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2023, 08:02:17 AM »
Context is everything. In the case of Troon, and indeed Lytham, where the clubhouses are right at the back of the green, the buildings are iconic structures that effectively form part of the hole in so much as they represent a hazard for an overhit shot. They also provide added interest for spectators in the clubhouse and also for the golfer knowing that they were likely under scrutiny.


However considering Randy's safety comments there is little or no pedestrian traffic between the green and the buildings which mean the issue of bystanders interfering or being endangered by play is minimised. (I'm assuming the windows are made of toughened glass which I think they are)


Is that the case in Paul's OP ? Will it be the back of the building that will be overlooking the green or will it be the front of the building where staff are coming in and out ? If it's the latter then that would be an obvious safety issue I'd have thought. It would at least be a distraction for golfers.


Also what mitigating measures will there be ? Will there be any planting between the green and the building for instance ? By way of an example the North Berwick clubhouse sits behind the 18th green and the path in front of it is about 75 feet from the back of the green. I've heard of golfers going over the back but not sure if I've heard anyone hitting the building or landing on the path. Perhaps one of the NB contingent on here might be able to comment.


Niall 

Tim Martin

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2023, 08:03:55 AM »
The back of the 9th green at Keney Park canít be more than twenty feet from the brick clubhouse. The building is in play and depending how close you are may require a carom to find your way onto the green. Itís a fun shot with a putter!! Whether or not itís too close is up for debate but it adds an element of intrigue to the hole.

Stewart Abramson

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2023, 08:18:04 AM »
Woking 14 - a par 5 - the back of the green is about 20 feet to the clubhouse. It's the closest I've seen and it seems to have been ok for a century.



Woking #14 green & club house

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2023, 08:18:39 AM »
As Niall says, context is everything, and it depends on what kind of character you want the place to have.  If there is no golfer traffic between green and building you can go quite close . . . the decision to put the 18th green close to the clubhouse at Stonewall is one of the best choices I've made in my years of design.  But that's a fairly quiet club.


One consideration that has not been mentioned is that if it's very close it matters what side of the building you are on.  A two-story building to the south or especially to the east of the green is going to put the back of the green in shade for part of the morning and that's not good for the turf.

Ira Fishman

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2023, 08:36:11 AM »
Woking 14 - a par 5 - the back of the green is about 20 feet to the clubhouse. It's the closest I've seen and it seems to have been ok for a century.



Woking #14 green & club house



Less than 18 feet from the back of the green to the beginning of the patio seating area. Three quarter wedge maybe the most terrifying shot I ever have hit. Patio was full. So next few shots with the audience pretty nerve racking too.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2023, 09:50:19 AM »
The average golfer never flys a green but does airmail it from a fronting bunker. So just avoid that.
AKA Mayday

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2023, 11:09:51 AM »
20 metres is 66 feet I would say that's fairly comfortable. At 150 feet you start to lose the intimacy of the clubhouse/18th but its definitely safer!


45 feet could be okay, depends on the building really, you will get 'invaded' once in 5,000 rounds probably, but that might be enough for a court case. Things like its okay at The Old Course might be ok in this forum but if someone loses an eye or worse, you might at some stage see the 1st and 18th deemed not acceptable by a man in a black uniform and blonde syrup.


Avoid fronting bunkers and so 'the thin'.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2023, 11:11:27 AM »
150 feet minimum from the center of the green. 45 feet? Sounds like a typical board without any professional guidance.
If the green is 100 feet in depth, then you mean 100 from the edge?
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Randy Thompson

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2023, 11:25:03 AM »
150 feet minimum from the center of the green. 45 feet? Sounds like a typical board without any professional guidance.
If the green is 100 feet in depth, then you mean 100 from the edge?
Correct, Center of the green is fifty feet to the edge, leaving an additional 100 feet to complete 150 feet from the center of the green.

David Cronan

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2023, 11:52:44 AM »
Lexington Country Club's 18th Green sits dangerously close to an outdoor seating area, which is located just outside the main restaurant.


I speak from experience. The 18th is a short par 5 and I once drove the ball into the rough. When I got to the ball, I discovered that it was sitting on a flier lie. Went for the green in 2 with a 3 wood, the ball definitely "flew" and not only landed on the porch, scattering many a person, but it ricocheted into the glass window fronting the indoor lounge area. Fortunately, nobody was hurt.


It must be a semi-frequent occurrence because as I sheepishly approached the people on the deck, one of the members said, "We play it from the drop area. I took the liberty and dropped your ball."


My ball was sitting in his nearly finished salad.


It was pretty funny.


Here's a link to a satellite view of the course/hole. The 18th is the one that is closest to the clubhouse porch.


https://usa.map-points.com/kentucky/lexington-country-club-313994.php

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2023, 12:32:11 PM »
I played Philly Cricket a few years ago. It was a beautiful September evening, and folks were dining on the lawn behind the green. My 20 handicap buddy laid up before the stream fronting the green. He took out his sand wedge, saw the folks behind the green, put the ball in his pocket, took off his glove, and picked up his bag. There was no way he was going to skull a shot into the crowd.


The ninth green at Sedgefield is pretty close to the clubhouse. I'm not sure how many feet it is, but it feels close. My five-handicap playing partner thinned his sand wedge from off the green into the clubhouse. I kept with for the sound of ball into window, but thankfully it missed. He wouldn't go get his ball, so I did.   
I am not sure how close is too close, but 45 feet is on the edge.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2023, 12:35:11 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
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Sean_A

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2023, 12:33:42 AM »
Context is right. What is the purpose of this 2 storey building and is it really necessary?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Matt_Cohn

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Re: How close is too close?
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2023, 01:20:37 AM »
I played Philly Cricket a few years ago. It was a beautiful September evening, and folks were dining on the lawn behind the green. My 20 handicap buddy laid up before the stream fronting the green. He took out his sand wedge, saw the folks behind the green, put the ball in his pocket, took off his glove, and picked up his bag. There was no way he was going to skull a shot into the crowd.


The ninth green at Sedgefield is pretty close to the clubhouse. I'm not sure how many feet it is, but it feels close. My five-handicap playing partner thinned his sand wedge from off the green into the clubhouse. I kept with for the sound of ball into window, but thankfully it missed. He wouldn't go get his ball, so I did.   
I am not sure how close is too close, but 45 feet is on the edge.


If it's close enough that golfers worry not just about going OB, but about hitting people and breaking things, that seems too close.

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