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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« on: October 04, 2023, 11:14:53 AM »
An odd pairing I admit.  What could these two courses have in common?  For me, of the 400 or so courses I’ve played these two made me wish I was a better golfer.  One is an unrelenting  brute where I would relish breaking 90.  The other inflicts one paper cut after another notwithstanding the hidden simplicity of each shot, yielding a score that steadily creeps above a reputable tally of 80 strokes.

I regret playing poorly at both.


What courses made you wish you were a better golfer and why?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 11:58:28 AM by Mike Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2023, 12:42:53 PM »
Good thread.


Cypress Point is my answer and it’s not close. I wasn’t playing much at all when I received an unexpected invite and did very well to stay within myself for the first 13 holes. I was driving the ball great and the caddy was sheltering me through the greens. I was floating. Then I made a dumb bogey at 14 and made the walk to 15 tee. No emotional control. No ability to tell the lizard in my brain to not say something idiotic in front of the beautiful woman. The ocean holes were card disasters. Thankfully I finished with a par and a memory. Another go at it might yield a similar result. But damn…what might’ve been. I just really want to pay justice and respect to those holes by hitting good shots.


A distant second is Crystal Downs. But for wholly different reasons.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 12:46:33 PM by Ben Sims »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2023, 01:12:01 PM »
As a not good golfer, the flip answer is every course. But it is a thought/memory provoking question. Three for me:


Ballyneal - - I played pretty well, and it is not overly difficult. And it is a blast to play. But it would have been even better if I were good enough to play it along the right strategic lines.


Yale--It must be great enjoyment and satisfaction to be good enough to really take it on.


Hope Valley - - One of our "home" courses. A great layout that is not too onerous off of the tee, but no matter what tees I play from, there are too many challenging approach shots (and a couple tough Par 3s) for me ever to score well consistently.




Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2023, 08:25:24 PM »
Good thread.


Cypress Point is my answer and it’s not close. I wasn’t playing much at all when I received an unexpected invite and did very well to stay within myself for the first 13 holes. I was driving the ball great and the caddy was sheltering me through the greens. I was floating. Then I made a dumb bogey at 14 and made the walk to 15 tee. No emotional control. No ability to tell the lizard in my brain to not say something idiotic in front of the beautiful woman. The ocean holes were card disasters. Thankfully I finished with a par and a memory. Another go at it might yield a similar result. But damn…what might’ve been. I just really want to pay justice and respect to those holes by hitting good shots.


A distant second is Crystal Downs. But for wholly different reasons.


A study in contrasts.  They are the same length, but Crystal Downs is probably 3-5 shots harder on a daily basis, and it does not forgive errors.  Cypress Point is far more gentle.  Both are more fun when you're playing a match against someone and don't worry as much about the scorecard.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2023, 08:30:02 PM »
An odd pairing I admit.  What could these two courses have in common?  For me, of the 400 or so courses I’ve played these two made me wish I was a better golfer.  One is an unrelenting  brute where I would relish breaking 90.  The other inflicts one paper cut after another notwithstanding the hidden simplicity of each shot, yielding a score that steadily creeps above a reputable tally of 80 strokes.

I regret playing poorly at both.


What courses made you wish you were a better golfer and why?




Likewise, these are two courses that are far more fun in match play.  I only played Painswick in match play in BUDA 2, and for me and Rich Goodale to beat Peter McEvoy and Robin Wiseman is an all-time fond memory.  I have never played Shinnecock in a friendly match where I could ignore the reality of the scorecard, but it is a great course nevertheless.


To your last question, the first place that pops into my mind is Oakmont.  I've never actually played it [the only course in the top 70 I've never played, though I've walked it multiple times], and at this point in my life I wouldn't want to, because you can't play it without a great touch and mine has gone to the heavens.  I also wished I was a straight enough hitter to enjoy Lofoten Links, and a long enough hitter to enjoy Bethpage Black, but I have never been either one of those things, so they are just beyond me.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2023, 08:59:07 AM »
Not sure how a particular course does or doesn't enable one to play better, ie better as in the ability to strike the ball well, adopt good course management practices, keep an even temperament etc etc?
Maybe a course that's a demanding walk and/or is played in extremely hot conditions will exhaust and tax the physical and mental abilities of the player to the extent that their ball striking, course management and temperament goes awol?
Or perhaps a course is of such length that it becomes either a slogfest or pitch-n-putt and causes the player to become disillusioned and disinterested and play worse as a consequence?
Or the pace of play is so slow or the course conditioning so poor as to cause players to lose the will to live and walk off!
atb

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2023, 09:18:47 AM »
The short answer is every course.


Not sure I quite follow the thread, but the courses that I wish I were a better player are mostly modern courses where a retee is possible on most every swing.


Generally I'm going to avoid seeking out such for fun, but sometimes a big event is held somewhere that you just hate the venue.
Metedeconk comes to mind, where I simply couldn't function on the long claustrophic course in a MET Open and missed the cut by 16 shots.
TPC Sawgrass is a course I simply couldn't function on when I played it(for fun ;) .


The Kings course at Gleneagles was a course that I happened to like, but... I wish I had been a bit longer(or younger) or straighter as 4-5 of the new purpose built tees for the event made the (now)260-270 carries on those holes impossible for me and I just wasn't striking it well enough to hit the super tight narrow layup areas that were called for on the ultra firm ground to avoid running into the deep, deep cross hazards the bombers were simply flying with impunity to much larger landing areas.
It was interesting to note that on the weekend, the 1/4 of the field that could carry those hazards on Thursday/Friday complained bitterly when the wind picked up that they had to lay up on those holes and then hit a long iron in. Welcome to our world.

By contrast, the qualifying course I played on I was able to use the super firm fairways to great advantage due to no forced carries and multiple doglegs where a curving shot could not only fuel the imagination, but substantially shorten the hole.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2023, 11:32:28 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2023, 10:41:33 AM »
Jeff,


The gulf between your game and my game needs to be measured in light years, but I too thought about Gleneagles Kings when reading the thread. Even from the resort tees, several of those Par 4s were overwhelming for me. However, I thought that they were really good holes and that the course was excellent.


Ira

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2023, 11:16:47 AM »

Likewise, these are two courses that are far more fun in match play.  I only played Painswick in match play in BUDA 2, and for me and Rich Goodale to beat Peter McEvoy and Robin Wiseman is an all-time fond memory. 



I'm sure he'll really enjoy the typo until he realises we now all know that he once lost a match with Peter McEvoy as his partner! :o :o :o

Doubly ironic as it was Rhic who used to insist that what happens at BUDA..... ;D


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_McEvoy


« Last Edit: October 05, 2023, 11:20:15 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2023, 11:40:31 AM »

Likewise, these are two courses that are far more fun in match play.  I only played Painswick in match play in BUDA 2, and for me and Rich Goodale to beat Peter McEvoy and Robin Wiseman is an all-time fond memory. 



I'm sure he'll really enjoy the typo until he realises we now all know that he once lost a match with Peter McEvoy as his partner! :o :o :o

Doubly ironic as it was Rhic who used to insist that what happens at BUDA..... ;D


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_McEvoy

It's a Doc alias 😎.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2023, 12:17:34 PM »
Good thread.


Cypress Point is my answer and it’s not close. I wasn’t playing much at all when I received an unexpected invite and did very well to stay within myself for the first 13 holes. I was driving the ball great and the caddy was sheltering me through the greens. I was floating. Then I made a dumb bogey at 14 and made the walk to 15 tee. No emotional control. No ability to tell the lizard in my brain to not say something idiotic in front of the beautiful woman. The ocean holes were card disasters. Thankfully I finished with a par and a memory. Another go at it might yield a similar result. But damn…what might’ve been. I just really want to pay justice and respect to those holes by hitting good shots.


A distant second is Crystal Downs. But for wholly different reasons.


A study in contrasts.  They are the same length, but Crystal Downs is probably 3-5 shots harder on a daily basis, and it does not forgive errors.  Cypress Point is far more gentle.  Both are more fun when you're playing a match against someone and don't worry as much about the scorecard.


Converting my non-GCA friends to embrace match play is one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. I’m on a Quixotic quest to make it happen. I genuinely didn’t think it’d be this hard to get a bunch of fellas to love match play.


And they wonder why I join places halfway around the world…

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2023, 05:40:54 PM »
Good thread.


Cypress Point is my answer and it’s not close. I wasn’t playing much at all when I received an unexpected invite and did very well to stay within myself for the first 13 holes. I was driving the ball great and the caddy was sheltering me through the greens. I was floating. Then I made a dumb bogey at 14 and made the walk to 15 tee. No emotional control. No ability to tell the lizard in my brain to not say something idiotic in front of the beautiful woman. The ocean holes were card disasters. Thankfully I finished with a par and a memory. Another go at it might yield a similar result. But damn…what might’ve been. I just really want to pay justice and respect to those holes by hitting good shots.


A distant second is Crystal Downs. But for wholly different reasons.


A study in contrasts.  They are the same length, but Crystal Downs is probably 3-5 shots harder on a daily basis, and it does not forgive errors.  Cypress Point is far more gentle.  Both are more fun when you're playing a match against someone and don't worry as much about the scorecard.


Converting my non-GCA friends to embrace match play is one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. I’m on a Quixotic quest to make it happen. I genuinely didn’t think it’d be this hard to get a bunch of fellas to love match play.


And they wonder why I join places halfway around the world…

Places?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2023, 06:44:40 PM »
Generally I'm going to avoid seeking out such for fun, but sometimes a big event is held somewhere that you just hate the venue.
Metedeconk comes to mind, where I simply couldn't function on the long claustrophic course in a MET Open and missed the cut by 16 shots.


Jeff-I found Metedeconk to be very difficult and that’s certainly from a few sets of tees in front of you. I would also add Atlanta Athletic Highlands which was so tough for me I really wouldn’t want another crack.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2023, 07:01:10 PM by Tim Martin »

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2023, 11:26:05 AM »


Likewise, these are two courses that are far more fun in match play.  I only played Painswick in match play in BUDA 2, and for me and Rich Goodale to beat Peter McEvoy and Robin Wiseman is an all-time fond memory.  I have never played Shinnecock in a friendly match where I could ignore the reality of the scorecard, but it is a great course nevertheless.


Yes, that poor Wiseman chap must be so embarrassed. Glad it wasn't me!


So many shots were given to Tom and Rihc. So, so many.


I carried Peter around on my back as best as I could, but he was sadly off his game that afternoon and we lost by 1 hole. Tom and Rihc gelled in a way that so few of their compatriots did in Rome. It was actually pretty impressive. Some remarkable short game escapades down the stretch.


Funny how Tom can't recall the result of the foursomes match we played that week... ;D
2023: Aberdovey, Liphook, Mill Ride (x9), Hillside, Lytham, Delamere Forest, Formby, Birkdale, Carya, Maxx Royal, Cleeve Hill, Sunny (Old & New), West Byfleet, Hoylake, East Berks, RSG, West Sussex, Hollinwell (x2), Alwoodley, JCB (x2), Beau Desert, Painswick (x2), Stranahan, Belfry (Brab & PGA)

Andre Masse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2023, 04:01:07 PM »
Funny enough, some of my biggest golf regrets are actually the opposite situation, where I happened to play some of my all-time favorite golf courses in competition settings and feel like being in contention at some of those tournaments distracted me from enjoying their character and beauty. In hindsight, the results of those tournaments didn't mean anything, but what I would do to just go back and fully appreciate the experience that they offer.

I'll always remember grinding it out at a High School tournament at Fishers Island 10 years ago, narrowing down the view to focus on the smallest targets possible while completely missing out on the incredible surroundings. Have been dreaming to get back there ever since to completely soak in what makes this place magical.

Chris Clouser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2023, 04:02:02 PM »
The only place I've ever played that I felt like I just never had the game for was Crystal Downs.  The first time I was there it was in a 20 mph breeze off the lake.  Absolutely brutal.  The 8th hole was dead into the wind IIRC. 


The next time, I thought it would be better because it was a fairly calm day.  I was wrong.  I still didn't have the game for it.  And at my best I was a fairly straight hitter with a decent short game, but a so-so putter.  That is not a combination that works well at Crystal Downs. 


I've played at some other well-known courses around the Midwest and this was the only place where I just knew I needed to enjoy the scenery and the fellowship because my score was gonna be huge.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2023, 06:35:22 PM »

Funny how Tom can't recall the result of the foursomes match we played that week... ;D


I really can't!  Old age and all that . . .

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Painswick and Shinnecock Hills
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2023, 08:28:58 PM »
An odd pairing I admit.  What could these two courses have in common?  For me, of the 400 or so courses I’ve played these two made me wish I was a better golfer.  One is an unrelenting  brute where I would relish breaking 90.  The other inflicts one paper cut after another notwithstanding the hidden simplicity of each shot, yielding a score that steadily creeps above a reputable tally of 80 strokes.

I regret playing poorly at both.


What courses made you wish you were a better golfer and why?




Likewise, these are two courses that are far more fun in match play.  I only played Painswick in match play in BUDA 2, and for me and Rich Goodale to beat Peter McEvoy and Robin Wiseman is an all-time fond memory.  I have never played Shinnecock in a friendly match where I could ignore the reality of the scorecard, but it is a great course nevertheless.


To your last question, the first place that pops into my mind is Oakmont.  I've never actually played it [the only course in the top 70 I've never played, though I've walked it multiple times], and at this point in my life I wouldn't want to, because you can't play it without a great touch and mine has gone to the heavens.  I also wished I was a straight enough hitter to enjoy Lofoten Links, and a long enough hitter to enjoy Bethpage Black, but I have never been either one of those things, so they are just beyond me.


Oakmont is the course where you stand over each and every shot thinking you can hit that particular shot, and each time realize after the strike you have greatly overestimated your ability. I believe this is what makes Oakmont a great course. It is a stark contrast with a course such as Jeff Warne described.

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