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Tim Martin

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What kind of premium could a daily fee/resort course charge for this type of tee time spacing?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Would You Pay a Higher Greens Fee for 12 or 15 Tee Time Intervals?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2023, 10:46:49 AM »
If you go from 9 minutes to 12 minutes, the green fee would have to go up from $200 to $267 to come out even.


The problem is, once the golf course realizes they can get $267, they'll start charging that much for 9-minute intervals, because capitalism.  I have seen this happen more than once.  In the Myrtle Beach market, raising the price of a course made everyone think it must be special, and it got more demand than before.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Would You Pay a Higher Greens Fee for 12 or 15 Tee Time Intervals?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2023, 12:17:39 PM »
If you go from 9 minutes to 12 minutes, the green fee would have to go up from $200 to $267 to come out even.


The problem is, once the golf course realizes they can get $267, they'll start charging that much for 9-minute intervals, because capitalism.  I have seen this happen more than once.  In the Myrtle Beach market, raising the price of a course made everyone think it must be special, and it got more demand than before.
I'll take Veblen goods for $500 Alex.

What Is a Veblen Good?
A Veblen good is a good for which demand increases as the price increases due to its exclusive nature and appeal as a status symbol. This runs counter to the prevailing circumstance of demand falling as prices rise. Thus, a Veblen good has an upward-sloping demand curve rather than the typical downward-sloping curve.

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Would You Pay a Higher Greens Fee for 12 or 15 Tee Time Intervals?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2023, 12:57:39 PM »
I think the toughest issue is that everyone who cares enough to pay more can just as easily just play in the early AM, and get a quick round anyway.


Any course thatís got a full sheet has to balance customer experience with increased revenue, but that is a tough calculation to make.


My argument has always been that the best way to deal with the issue of slow downs is to treat it like Disney does. Make the areas that back up entertaining, but only after they start to back up (this can be monitored or at a specific time, like 10am). Have bathrooms (2 mins), and a halfway house (15 minutes), even a bar purpose built for waits with a putting green or a view of another green. This can turn a half hour wait from something intolerable, into a tolerable way to have lunch on the course.


Courses with a full sheet have little economic incentive to increase pace (since weíre already paying for the slow round), but they do have an incentive to offer goods and services while we are a captive audience. Itís not perfect, but itís better than nothing.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2023, 01:16:18 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
Building an encyclopedia of golf courses that anyone can edit: Golf Course Wiki
Some strong opinions on golf: Wigs on the Green
I really think golf culture should be more like beer culture than wine culture

Peter Sayegh

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Re: Would You Pay a Higher Greens Fee for 12 or 15 Tee Time Intervals?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2023, 01:31:07 PM »
Tim, no I wouldn't.
The only thing guaranteed in that scenario is the upcharge. I think it would be a slippery slope if a course advertised lengthier tee time intervals would improve PoP.


D_Malley

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Re: Would You Pay a Higher Greens Fee for 12 or 15 Tee Time Intervals?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2023, 01:50:21 PM »
We are a municipal daily fee golf course in the philly suburbs.


We have kept our tee time intervals at 12 minutes since the pandemic. Our first hole is a 320 yard par four and the second hole is a 125 yard par 3. We do not let groups tee off on #1 until the group in front has reached the second tee. It is sometimes difficult to hold people from hitting on the first tee. This has made a huge difference in pace of play and customer satisfaction.

Our tee sheet typically sells out from open to close pretty much every day, and we are doing more rounds then before the pandemic when it was 9 minute intervals. We have kept our base rates about the same as before but we have elimited disount rates (one rate for everyone) and no longer sell season memberships. Revenue and Rounds are both significantly higher then pre pandemic numbers. This policy has been a win/win for everyone involved.

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Would You Pay a Higher Greens Fee for 12 or 15 Tee Time Intervals?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2023, 01:56:14 PM »
I will add, the conundrum of tee time intervals is exactly the type of golf problem where the 501(c)(7) nonprofit model should flourish. It makes sense to me that folks who only want 3:45 rounds should form a private club exactly for that purpose. Everything from routing, to 15+ min intervals, to slow green speeds, to pace expectations could be purpose built. All of the contradictory incentives would no longer exist, exactly because the equity purposely built the course for pace.
Building an encyclopedia of golf courses that anyone can edit: Golf Course Wiki
Some strong opinions on golf: Wigs on the Green
I really think golf culture should be more like beer culture than wine culture

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would You Pay a Higher Greens Fee for 12 or 15 Tee Time Intervals?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2023, 02:29:24 PM »
some of my post above is not showing


we are a daily fee municipal golf course in the philly suburbs. Since the pandemic we have stayed with 12 minute intervals and it has been a win/win for everybody. Pace of play is rarely a problem and customer satisfaction is really good. We have kept rates resonable and our tee sheet is basically sold out from open to close every day. We have eliminated all discount rates and now charge everyone the same price we have also eliminated season memberships as there is no need for them anymore. Rounds and revenue is much higher then pre pandemic numbers when we were using 9 minute intervals.


Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would You Pay a Higher Greens Fee for 12 or 15 Tee Time Intervals?
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2023, 02:41:04 PM »
some of my post above is not showing


we are a daily fee municipal golf course in the philly suburbs. Since the pandemic we have stayed with 12 minute intervals and it has been a win/win for everybody. Pace of play is rarely a problem and customer satisfaction is really good. We have kept rates resonable and our tee sheet is basically sold out from open to close every day. We have eliminated all discount rates and now charge everyone the same price we have also eliminated season memberships as there is no need for them anymore. Rounds and revenue is much higher then pre pandemic numbers when we were using 9 minute intervals.




Thanks  for providing another concrete example.




We've now had two concrete examples of courses spacing out their tee times and significantly speeding up play and increasing revenue besides (the other example was on one of the other slow-play threads). It makes me question the wisdom of slow play is caused by slow players.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would You Pay a Higher Greens Fee for 12 or 15 Tee Time Intervals?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2023, 02:50:46 PM »
On Labor Day I played a course with 20-minute tee times.  We caught up to the group ahead of us on the 3rd hole.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would You Pay a Higher Greens Fee for 12 or 15 Tee Time Intervals?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2023, 03:07:47 PM »
On Labor Day I played a course with 20-minute tee times.  We caught up to the group ahead of us on the 3rd hole.


Were you able to play through?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would You Pay a Higher Greens Fee for 12 or 15 Tee Time Intervals?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2023, 04:16:07 PM »
On Labor Day I played a course with 20-minute tee times.  We caught up to the group ahead of us on the 3rd hole.


Were you able to play through?
No, but they picked it up a lot when they saw us and from then on it was only an occasional short wait.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would You Pay a Higher Greens Fee for 12 or 15 Tee Time Intervals?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2023, 06:16:32 PM »
I will add, the conundrum of tee time intervals is exactly the type of golf problem where the 501(c)(7) nonprofit model should flourish. It makes sense to me that folks who only want 3:45 rounds should form a private club exactly for that purpose. Everything from routing, to 15+ min intervals, to slow green speeds, to pace expectations could be purpose built. All of the contradictory incentives would no longer exist, exactly because the equity purposely built the course for pace.


Matt,


You just described a whole bunch of clubs in the UK&I except they do not run 15 minute tee times. I appreciate the research and data. However, slow players are slow, and they slow everyone else down regardless of tee time spacing. Culture is culture, and slow is slow.


Ira

SBusch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would You Pay a Higher Greens Fee for 12 or 15 Tee Time Intervals?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2023, 09:14:43 AM »
some of my post above is not showing


we are a daily fee municipal golf course in the philly suburbs. Since the pandemic we have stayed with 12 minute intervals and it has been a win/win for everybody. Pace of play is rarely a problem and customer satisfaction is really good. We have kept rates resonable and our tee sheet is basically sold out from open to close every day. We have eliminated all discount rates and now charge everyone the same price we have also eliminated season memberships as there is no need for them anymore. Rounds and revenue is much higher then pre pandemic numbers when we were using 9 minute intervals.




Thanks  for providing another concrete example.




We've now had two concrete examples of courses spacing out their tee times and significantly speeding up play and increasing revenue besides (the other example was on one of the other slow-play threads). It makes me question the wisdom of slow play is caused by slow players.


Correlation is not causation.  ALL courses have seen higher revenue since the pandemic. 

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would You Pay a Higher Greens Fee for 12 or 15 Tee Time Intervals?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2023, 10:18:53 AM »
some of my post above is not showing


we are a daily fee municipal golf course in the philly suburbs. Since the pandemic we have stayed with 12 minute intervals and it has been a win/win for everybody. Pace of play is rarely a problem and customer satisfaction is really good. We have kept rates resonable and our tee sheet is basically sold out from open to close every day. We have eliminated all discount rates and now charge everyone the same price we have also eliminated season memberships as there is no need for them anymore. Rounds and revenue is much higher then pre pandemic numbers when we were using 9 minute intervals.




Thanks  for providing another concrete example.




We've now had two concrete examples of courses spacing out their tee times and significantly speeding up play and increasing revenue besides (the other example was on one of the other slow-play threads). It makes me question the wisdom of slow play is caused by slow players.


Correlation is not causation.  ALL courses have seen higher revenue since the pandemic.


Have they all seen faster playing times?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

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