News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Designing variety that fits the flow of the course.
« on: September 02, 2023, 02:41:34 PM »
I played a course this spring with a great variety of golf holes, but when I reflected on the round, I didn’t feel as though all the pieces fit together as a puzzle. I couldn’t put my finger on why that was so, but it felt like there were different architectural styles. The course was disjointed and didn’t flow from one hole to another. A course like Pine Valley has excellent variety. At the time it was built, few courses had similar holes. Each hole is a creation unto itself, yet the pieces fit together. That is part of what makes it such a great course.
It is like skiing. Keystone flows, but most of the runs are similar. I get bored there quickly. On the other hand, Arapahoe Basin has a great variety of runs and landforms, but you always know you are at A-Basin.
Very creative architects designing a course that has both great variety and flow must be one of the most challenging problems they must solve.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Designing variety that fits the flow of the course.
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2023, 03:37:34 PM »
I've always though of Rich Harvest Farms as the course most guilty of this, at least that I've played. 

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Designing variety that fits the flow of the course.
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2023, 04:30:27 PM »
I've always though of Rich Harvest Farms as the course most guilty of this, at least that I've played.


Peter, you probably know better than anyone Lido has tremendous variety, but you always know you are at Lido.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Designing variety that fits the flow of the course.
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2023, 02:51:30 AM »
Tommy,


Would you mind clarifying “flow” a little more because your skiing analogy seems to contradict your opening paragraph (or more likely I am just missing the meaning)?


For instance, St. Enodoc has a beautiful flow - as well as variety - in that it takes you in to different landscapes, feelings and vistas effortlessly.


Muirfield has a beautiful flow but you know you are essentially still in the same field.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Designing variety that fits the flow of the course.
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2023, 11:02:58 AM »
Tommy,


Would you mind clarifying “flow” a little more because your skiing analogy seems to contradict your opening paragraph (or more likely I am just missing the meaning)?


For instance, St. Enodoc has a beautiful flow - as well as variety - in that it takes you in to different landscapes, feelings and vistas effortlessly.


Muirfield has a beautiful flow but you know you are essentially still in the same field.


I'll see if I can do better. Tribute courses might have very good individual holes, but there is certainly no flow. At Keystone, most of the skiing is the same, but for me boring. It is all the same. Trees left, trees right and snow in the middle. ABasin has a few groomed trails, but most trails are above the tree line with rock outcroppings and steep terrain. The East Wall is wide open trek to the top skiing through shoots. The Montezuma Bowl is just that, a huge rock strewn gnarly bowl, and while the Beavers has some steep tree skiing, you never doubt that you are at the same resort.


Ballyhack has a collection of holes that most likely you have not seen anywhere else, yet going from one hole to the next you feel that Lester has used similar themes throughout the course, wide fairways, large undulating greens, forced carries, and deep scary bunkers.


I have played a few courses (that I will not name) in Hawaii that have interesting holes, but they don't feel as though they belong to the same golf course.


In my head, I have designed many courses. I think they are interesting holes, but I don't think they work as a collection.


Hope this helps a bit.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Designing variety that fits the flow of the course.
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2023, 12:29:28 PM »
Probably the best example of flow to me is Cypress Point, starting in the open, going to the woods, back out in the open, then dunes, and then to the coastline.  The design style is reasonably consistent but the terrain varies.


I had a landscape professor who liked to say constant doesn't equal consistency or continuity. Or maybe it was the other way around.  In any event, there are some architects who feel that if you do a fw chipping area around the green once, you need to do it on every green, which is a good golf example of my professor's theory.



Let's face it, more golf courses are too much alike than far too different unless a reno builds three holes with another gca that makes no attempt to fit the holes in.  Even then, nature sometimes takes care of things for those courses. I saw the 1979 Open at Inverness where Fazio's new holes were widely criticized as out of character with Ross.  I went back to the Senior Open in the early 2000's and they fit better, and to my eye, there wasn't much rebuilding of the Faz bunkers to make them fit, but the mature trees helped tie it together.


I ended up with maybe 30 fw bunkering schemes and more greens.  After realizing just how much a creature of habit most humans - including gca's - are I looked for the best place to put one each of those fw schemes, maybe twice on opposite nines and fw sides, without repeating.  Some of the "schemes" were just simple things like breaking one big bunker into a cluster of 5.  Sometimes simple things like doing a RR Tie wall 2 or 3 times instead of just once like you might on a tribute course helped make the feel like part of the course.


I always figured that as a plan drawer to start, if I strove for unique features, somehow I would have enough repetitiveness in my drawing style and preferences that they would hang together.


And, to break up the pattern of target and flanking bunkers, adding one centerline bunker, a few carry bunkers, etc., because I thought bunkering was too close to the old RTJ style of flanking one or both sides of the fw and was indeed too consistant.  In fact, I often built one hole in the RTJ/Wilson 50s style as one of my efforts at variety.


Even with all those attempts at variety, I am certain that most could tell my style.  My biggest exception is Wilderness and Quarry in far northern MN, where I have been told no one would guess it was the same architect.


I'm sorry for the slight digression, but these points are somewhat related to flow.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Designing variety that fits the flow of the course.
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2023, 02:57:09 PM »
The idea of marrying flow with variety captures why a number of courses are on my favorite list:


CPC as Jeff already mentions.
Somerset Hills
Bandon Trails (the 13 to 14 walk does challenge the flow)
Golspie
North Berwick
Lahinch
Friar’s Head
Elie


In some of those cases, variety of land form is predominant, in some variety of holes is predominant, and in some it is both. But it is rare in my experience to find the two married.


Ira

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Designing variety that fits the flow of the course.
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2023, 03:20:08 PM »
Some puzzles are pieced together to form an abstract finished piece...others to form a more literal piece of "art". And, there are lots of types of puzzles. A par-3 course is a much different puzzle than a regulation layout. The Himalayas is much different than playing Oakmont in the wind. Not to mention that playing in a club championship is significantly different than playing with your son or daughter — on Father's day, and for fun.

The "thing" about golf is that the actors are unpredictable. There is no script — only a stage and an audience of birds, frogs and worms.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Designing variety that fits the flow of the course.
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2023, 05:25:32 PM »
Some puzzles are pieced together to form an abstract finished piece...others to form a more literal piece of "art". And, there are lots of types of puzzles. A par-3 course is a much different puzzle than a regulation layout. The Himalayas is much different than playing Oakmont in the wind. Not to mention that playing in a club championship is significantly different than playing with your son or daughter — on Father's day, and for fun.

The "thing" about golf is that the actors are unpredictable. There is no script — only a stage and an audience of birds, frogs and worms.
I really like this take. Context always matters and I often find myself having the best times at the "worst" courses. I think my fondest golf memories may be all my golf friends battling it out over the silly 36-hole Bruntsfield Links in the Meadows in Edinburgh.
GolfCourse.Wiki
Wigs on the Green
GCA Extension v2.0.1: Firefox/Chrome

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Designing variety that fits the flow of the course.
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2023, 07:43:57 PM »
I have never felt any fit to the Ross and RTJ holes at Broadmoor East and West. If I did not know, perhaps I would not notice.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back