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Good topic, John. Looking forward to who can make insightful contributions. I have an ancillary question related to this. Before Merion's construction, we know Hugh Wilson visited NGLA and spent time with Macdonald, for NGLA was considered the premier design at the time. Yet--unless I'm mistaken--I haven't heard of Macdonald having any role or interaction with the collaborators in the creation of Pine Valley. Is there specific context for why that may have been the case? Was there an antagonism between Crump and members of the Philly School with templates or with Macdonald himself?
Tom (and Peter Flory)--Do we know for sure what the original Lido plot of land looked like before CBM started Lido's construction? For example , what occupied the space that became the ponds that defined the split fairway of #4. Was it typical Long Island barrier island land...which would mean that CBM conceived of #4 entirely in his own mind. Or perhaps were there small ponds in these areas and/or wetlands in these areas...and seeing them helped CBM formulate the shape of #4...which would make his "design process" somewhat more similar to Tom's.I guess this becomes two questions...1. did CBM find some features in the land as he found it and use any of them, or did be spread tons of sand and create every feature himself and Raynor and his team?2. do we have any real evidence pointing ot the answer to #1, or is the answer mostly presumption?
I get the feeling that Macdonald only planned on building one course when he was studying the greatest holes in Europe. I donít think he planned on building courses for all his friends too. I think that was a result of his success at NGLA. By the time they got to Lido, they had used just about every idea he thought made for good golf, outside of a few holes youíll find at Lido, (like the Channel hole).
Quote from: Bret Lawrence on August 24, 2023, 05:44:46 PMI get the feeling that Macdonald only planned on building one course when he was studying the greatest holes in Europe. I donít think he planned on building courses for all his friends too. I think that was a result of his success at NGLA. By the time they got to Lido, they had used just about every idea he thought made for good golf, outside of a few holes youíll find at Lido, (like the Channel hole).Bret:Maybe, but Macdonald used a lot of holes for inspiration that he had played and liked. He used a hole from Scotscraig, which became his Knoll hole -- there is no mention of it in his book, so I suspect he might have remembered it from his early days in St. Andrews, or from going over to R & A meetings separate from his "ideal golf holes" trip. Likewise, I believe the 16th hole at The National might have been inspired by what's now the 17th at Lundin Links . . . the hole AFTER what is now called the Leven hole on scorecards of Macdonald's courses. He had holes from Littlestone, and from Brancaster. I think he had considerably more than 18 holes in his head that he was considering for The National, and used somewhere later.
I'm very sorry that I never got to meet George.
While George never got to see the Lido, as you probably know he did have the opportunity to be involved with the Old Macdonald project. I know that meant a lot to him.