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Garland Bayley

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WAD_Scorecard by Garland Bayley, on Flickr

From the present scorecard, we can see that the back tees for the 8th hole, Devil's Elbow, measures 554 yards and the common tees measure 515 yards.


No. 5 is a belter of a Par 5.  Very strategic, very dramatic, very quirky and potentially very controversial.  This is the tee shot from back pegs.  Forward tees will be located on the plateau in the mid foreground.  Your tee shot needs to be well placed and possibly not with a driver to ensure you are in good position to take advantage of the strategic choices offered by the second.  Somewhere in view close to the dune that ends the left portion of the fairway is good.

Dai provided me with a photo from the tees that we played at Buda, which most definitely were not the back tees.

WAD#8_FromTee by Garland Bayley, on Flickr

I don't see how the views differ. They look like they were taken from the same location. For that matter, the Google Earth image of the hole from May this year doesn't show the back tees at 554 yards unless the back tees of 17 are doing double duty as the back tees of 8. Of course Ally could have built a new back tee since May that would not show up on the Google Earth image. One additional caveat is that the scorecard yardages don't match up very well with the Google Earth measurements throughout the course. I am wondering if the measurements on the scorecard were done with a wheel rolling on the ground that would add yardage due to the undulations in the ground. Whereas, the Oregon Golf Association measured the course at my club using lasers to poles they set up for measurement purposes which makes the measurements on Google Earth match the scorecard. All other courses I have compared scorecards to Google Earth measurements have lined up to be very accurate!

From

From the preferred position you have the choice of laying up to the left, where Ally and Jack are stood, clipping it over the top of the conical dune, or smashing it over the saddle to the right, ideally aimed at the toe of the dune.  The hole bends at about 70 degrees to the right and continues to a large green tucked behind another dune.  Split fairways are tough to get right. 


Kevin Markham recently produced a YouTube video about Carne including the Wild Atlantic Dunes layout. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hXgYkcM7xg He clarifies the choices that Robin is referring to.

Laying up left would be as shown.

WAD#8_ThroughDevilsElbow by Garland Bayley, on Flickr

Smashing it over the saddle to the right as seen here.

WAD#8_Shortcut by Garland Bayley, on Flickr

He diagrams the options labeling laying up as 2, and over the saddle as 1.

WAD#8_Diagram by Garland Bayley, on Flickr

The far side of the saddle will be fairway and for my money this side of the saddle should be cut down too.  There is nothing to be gained by laying up on the hill or just sclaffing it to the top, as the angle into the green is horrible from there.  You have to clear the saddle by a distance to gain much of a benefit, so there is little danger of the left fairway being rendered obsolete.  The weaker golfer will generally favour that route for the better visibility it offers.


It seems Robin's money is with the 2010 version of the hole seen in Google Earth.

DevilsElbowCarne2010 by Garland Bayley, on Flickr

Where we see the near side of the saddle has been cut down too.
Kevin Markham shows the view from ďsclaffingĒ it to the top.

WAD#8_RidgeApproach by Garland Bayley, on Flickr

Dai has provided a picture from the green looking back from the green. The photo shows that significant elevation must be gained to come over the saddle. Without the necessity of needing to hit the ball high, the weaker golfer can favor the long way round. Should a hole be measured by the weak golfer's route? I don't think I have ever seen a hole before that has been measured by the weak golfer's route!

WAD#8_BehindGreen by Garland Bayley, on Flickr

Of course the land coming down from the saddle will promote further roll out for the ball. Kevin Markham shows the view from the saddle towards the green.

WAD#8_RidgeApproach by Garland Bayley, on Flickr

Robin calls the hole ďvery strategic.Ē

The strategy of going through Devil's Elbow is diagrammed below.

WAD#8_Option2 by Garland Bayley, on Flickr

Notice that it is diagrammed from the back tee for 17 as the yardages shown on the shots add up to the 554 yards that the scorecard shows for the hole. Also, notice that the route hugs the edge of the fairway, whereas typically a hole would be measured along the center of the fairway. But, as noted above the yardages measured on Google Earth did not align with the scorecard values, and the exact location of the tee is in question.

The strategy of going over the saddle is diagrammed below.

WAD#8_Option1 by Garland Bayley, on Flickr

Notice that the path again hugs the edge of the fairway so as to be analogous the the path given in the previous diagram. Also notice that the length is now 530 yards.

Looking at Dai's photograph with a more close up view of the two paths approaching the green
it is clear that going over the saddle gives a far more forgiving landing area for the second shot. And, the down slope will extend the length of the shot. Combining that with the necessity of needing to stop a ball from running through the fairway on the Devil's Elbow which further limits the low ball hitters by forcing them to detour on a wide path around the elbow to get through it as they cannot loft a ball into the narrow path that would be running at a 70 degree angle from their current fairway and have it stop before running through the fairway.

WAD#8_DevilsElbow by Garland Bayley, on Flickr

My personal experience was that after a good drive from tees well forward of the back tees I could see a tight area to land my second shot in. My estimate of hitting 7 iron sent the ball through the elbow and lost. Second time around after a similar drive choosing 9 iron I the ball pulled into the rough on the right and ended up with another lost ball. I didn't know about playing over the saddle as my drive was beyond an area where that would be an option had I even known that such an option existed.

So there are several questions and possible topic for discussion brought up by this narrative.

Where exactly is the tee for the 554 yard length? Was a 554 yard version of the hole pictured in Robin's original photograph?

If the grass were mowed out in the near side of the saddle as seen in the 2010 version, would anyone actually choose to play through the elbow? Even without it mowed out, how many experienced players of the hole actually play around the elbow? Should not the scorecard label the hole as 530 yards, and leave the weaker players to play the 554 yard version?

Has the elbow been widened or softened in any way since Buda was there in 2016? Has the club experimented with mowing out the near side of the saddle since Ally began his work there in 2012?

From the forward tees should a player lay back to gain the best angle over the saddle? Should a pole or poles be erected to give a proper line over the saddle?

How were hole lengths measured at Carne? I notice that our scorecards from 2016 were in metres, but the Carne website now shows the card shown above measured in yards. Perhaps Ally just counted his steps as he played his ball around the links. ;)

Don't you have to make a decision on the club you choose on the tee based on what strategy you are choosing on the tee. If you consistently hit your shots, wouldn't you want to play a shorter club off the tee to give you a good angle over the saddle, and play a longer club off the tee to give you a more lofted shot into the elbow? Therefore, the strategic options are not offered by the second shot.

Was the split fairway here gotten right?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 10:43:53 AM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2023, 03:23:52 AM »
Comprehensive, Garland!


I hope others join in because itís always nice to deep-dive on certain holes.


Iíve logical answers to all of your objective question (less so to your subjective ones) and will answer those when I return from golf this evening.

Ben Stephens

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2023, 03:26:32 AM »
Comprehensive, Garland!


I hope others join in because itís always nice to deep-dive on certain holes.


Iíve logical answers to all of your objective question (less so to your subjective ones) and will answer those when I return from golf this evening.


Hope it doesn't put you off your golf today just thinking about Hole 8!! ;D

Thomas Dai

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2023, 03:43:17 AM »
Coincidentally this week they are playing the Irish PGA at Carne and here if the link works is a video overview of the hole taken from atop the dunes - even better with the volume turned up! - https://twitter.com/i/status/1690051587559825410
atb

jeffwarne

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2023, 07:25:56 AM »
What an amazing video.


Hard to believe it's been 20 years since I was there....


As to the original question-all of the above I'd guess(at least controversial for some)



« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 07:28:10 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2023, 10:50:37 AM »
I have not played Carne. It is a big hole in my Irish adventures. From your description, I like the hole. I don't think the shortcut would be viable for me, because I don't hit it far enough anymore, but I sure would like to see someone do it.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Garland Bayley

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2023, 10:56:52 AM »
I have not played Carne. It is a big hole in my Irish adventures. From your description, I like the hole. I don't think the shortcut would be viable for me, because I don't hit it far enough anymore, but I sure would like to see someone do it.

It would appear that it is about 150 yard carry to the fairway over the saddle. I have read that a six iron is the highest flying club in the bag. Still out of reach for you?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2023, 11:33:23 AM »
I have not played Carne. It is a big hole in my Irish adventures. From your description, I like the hole. I don't think the shortcut would be viable for me, because I don't hit it far enough anymore, but I sure would like to see someone do it.

It would appear that it is about 150 yard carry to the fairway over the saddle. I have read that a six iron is the highest flying club in the bag. Still out of reach for you?


Oh, that makes it even more interesting. It is nice to be armed with that kind of knowledge before playing a course.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Peter Flory

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2023, 01:46:50 PM »
My only nit was that I didn't think that the greens felt as authentic as the rest of the course. 

Garland Bayley

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2023, 02:20:32 PM »
My only nit was that I didn't think that the greens felt as authentic as the rest of the course.

Greens? There is only one green on #8! ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2023, 02:39:29 PM »
I obviously love it. My only concern is how narrow the long route is. I would likely play over the saddle (especially the 2010 version) simply because itís not an impossible shot for me, but ending up in the thick stuff would leave an easier recovery than ending up in the same position about 100 yards farther out.


Obviously I play with my own weaknesses in mind, but I prefer a conservative route to be effective danger-free.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 03:28:26 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Thomas Dai

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2023, 04:46:45 PM »
My recollection from participating in the epic Buda held at Carne was that the Kilmore-9 although previously in operation had been closed for a while - for financial reasons I seem to recall being told - and that it had only been re-opened just before the Buda took place. Indeed the Buda event may have been one of the spurs to re-open it. As such the mowing lines were not what they could have been being quite tight in numerous places.


The then K-5th, now the hole numbered per this thread, is a pretty beefy hole, a genuine par-5, something of a rarity these days, and itís a challenging hole especially as they prevailing wind is against and can fairly rip along at considerable speed through the canyon.


At Buda and on other Carne visits I had considered not playing through the canyon but instead playing to the right over the saddle but discounted it.


Mainly this was due to the potential for a lost ball as the mown area leading up to, on on top of and beyond the saddle was pretty small and there was plenty of long grass around it. Also being a blind shot the shot over the saddle was difficult from the alignment aspect. In addition, even a successful shot over the saddle would likely leave a very awkward and still long semi-blind approach shot probably from a downslope into the green over a small rough covered mound and likely landing on a down slope. So not very enticing especially into the wind.


Hence I chose to play along the canyon route each of the multiple times I played the hole despite this requiring less than a full shot with my longest fairway club for the second shot.


It played as a tough hole, a challenging hole, but thatís fine by me. Holes with options provide additional interest and thought. If the mowing lines had been angled differently and there was greater width and more short grass in the saddle area I might, might have been tempted to play over saddle. But this route might not be the best for all players in all circumstances especially for a low trajectory player.


Terrific hole, terrific course (all 27-holes), terrific place and terrific location too.


Atb
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 05:10:17 PM by Thomas Dai »

Garland Bayley

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2023, 05:12:14 PM »
Dai,

I assume you have always played the hole at approximately 500 yards, not at 550 yard tips.

Once you hit a full drive on the 500 yards version, it would seem that playing over the saddle would be less attractive as it becomes ever more necessary to hit a shot that will rise quickly to surmount the dune peak you are now along side, thereby perhaps forcing a club choice that would not carry to the fairway on the other side, and the angle would not be one that would be playing directly down the fairway on the other side, thereby being accepting to a wider angle of dispersion on the shot. Dialing your drive back to 200 yards gives you alignment with the fairway on the other side and a 150 yard carry to the fairway on the other side.

If I were given another go in calm weather it would be 7 wood/3 hybrid off the tee followed by 9 wood/4 hybrid over the saddle on the 500 yard version.

Perhaps the most strategic part of playing the hole would be factoring in what the wind would suggest when playing the hole.

As for the alignment problem, just send your caddy up to the saddle to give you the line. ;)

« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 05:15:36 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2023, 06:46:38 PM »
Iíve played the hole a few times over the last 5 years. Iíve come to the following conclusion (which assumes Iíve hit a decent drive):


If I have a forecaddie, I hit over the saddle 10 times out of 10.


If I donít have a forecaddie, I stay in the valley where I can keep a visual on my ball 10 times out of 10.


Since I never have a forecaddie, I go out into the elbow and treat it as a three-shot hole.


Thereís nothing more infuriating than hitting a shot on the line you want, but because itís blind and you are hitting over a hill and itís usually very windy, you might very well spend the next stretch of time searching for a ball you know should be in play, but given the length of the rough/fescue, if itís even a foot into it, youíll probably never find it.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2023, 04:50:00 AM »
Couple of quick responses:


- Garland, the back tee is indeed connected to the 17th tee. From there, the hole can be 554 yards or 530 yards or possibly even less (or more) depending where we measured the two turning points. The turning points were measured by laser


- The photo Robin took in 2012 was not from the back tee. But we hadnít built the tees at that point so he was not to know.


- The overhead in 2010 shows the near side of the saddle having been gang mown down. What it does not show is that I removed a second dune peak in 2012 to widen and lower that whole aperture.


- The intent was to try and get the two options equally used. The landscape provides two problems:
 1. The long route (easy option) is a little narrower than ideal. Nothing can be done about that without huge earth moving and money, or by completely negating the point of the hole and pushing the dune down in there (still decent earth moving and money)
 2. The backside of the blind route is not ideally aligned with the angle most golfers will come over. Part of this cannot be resolved due to landscape constraints. Part of it just needs different mowing lines, which I am trying to persuade the club to implement. These are primarily aimed at giving a hint of the ideal direction, partly by pulling the fairway partway (not whole way) over the saddle and partly by realigning the grass path up to the saddle. Note a white stone on top is not an acceptable solution because that indicates a completely different answer dependent on where you are playing your second from. Rough management as the course is played more will also help here.


Like Dan states, one of the most frustrating things in golf is to execute a blind shot exactly as meant only to lose a ball. All changes in that saddle are aimed at reducing that within landscape constraints.


On another point, Iím not sure I want to dance with the devil but Iím interested on what Peterís view of ďauthenticĒ might be in relation to greens design.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2023, 09:48:32 AM »
...
On another point, Iím not sure I want to dance with the devil but Iím interested on what Peterís view of ďauthenticĒ might be in relation to greens design.

Since Peter used the plural "greens" I think he was commenting on the difference between your greens and the Hackett greens on WAD.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2023, 11:03:44 AM »
...
On another point, Iím not sure I want to dance with the devil but Iím interested on what Peterís view of ďauthenticĒ might be in relation to greens design.

Since Peter used the plural "greens" I think he was commenting on the difference between your greens and the Hackett greens on WAD.


I know that, Garland. I would like to probe why he considers one set of greens less ďauthenticĒ than the other though. Because thereís a much bigger discussion to be had there. Not only in the difference between Hackettís greens and the newer ones. But also in what defines authenticity. For instance, is it more authentic to build up the front of a green to give a shelf style, flattish green surface in a wildly undulating landscape? Or is it more authentic to tie in high points at the rear of a green site to low points at the front by using internal contour, all the while mirroring the undulating landscape all around?


You could also extend the conversation to even take on the the entirely built templates of MacRaynor as an example.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2023, 11:15:27 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Garland Bayley

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2023, 11:47:48 AM »
My opinion on the greens is that the Hackett greens did not match the excitement of the course.

Will the powers that be at Carne allow you to improve the Hackett greens?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Eric Smith

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2023, 01:10:39 PM »
My opinion on the greens is that the Hackett greens did not match the excitement of the course.

Will the powers that be at Carne allow you to improve the Hackett greens?


I found this interesting from the Markham video posted earlier:


"With all the chaos of the landscape that Eddie worked with, maybe he felt that it was just kinder to the golfer to give them softer greens. Ally Mcintosh didn't think that way at all."

« Last Edit: August 13, 2023, 01:12:29 PM by Eric Smith »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2023, 01:20:12 PM »
My opinion on the greens is that the Hackett greens did not match the excitement of the course.

Will the powers that be at Carne allow you to improve the Hackett greens?


I found this interesting from the Markham video posted earlier:


"With all the chaos of the landscape that Eddie worked with, maybe he felt that it was just kinder to the golfer to give them softer greens. Ally Macintosh didn't think that way at all."


I noticed that comment from Kevin as well.


Whatís worth noting is that in general, it is difficult to find the right portion of the green as a few of the pinnable portions on some of the greens are quite small in area.


But finding somewhere on the green surface is quite easy in most cases: The tie-ins to surrounding dunes provide more backstops and flash-ups than they do roll-offs and artificially created swales. The greens themselves then putt at 7-8 on the stimp and are a lot of fun. I find I three putt on them less often than I do on most courses, despite the internal contour.

Eric Smith

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2023, 01:41:34 PM »
My opinion on the greens is that the Hackett greens did not match the excitement of the course.

Will the powers that be at Carne allow you to improve the Hackett greens?


I found this interesting from the Markham video posted earlier:


"With all the chaos of the landscape that Eddie worked with, maybe he felt that it was just kinder to the golfer to give them softer greens. Ally Macintosh didn't think that way at all."


I noticed that comment from Kevin as well.


Whatís worth noting is that in general, it is difficult to find the right portion of the green as a few of the pinnable portions on some of the greens are quite small in area.


But finding somewhere on the green surface is quite easy in most cases: The tie-ins to surrounding dunes provide more backstops and flash-ups than they do roll-offs and artificially created swales. The greens themselves then putt at 7-8 on the stimp and are a lot of fun. I find I three putt on them less often than I do on most courses, despite the internal contour.


Hi Ally. I agree, they sure do look fun in the video. Wild Atlantic Dunes beckons!

Garland Bayley

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2023, 02:37:49 PM »
...
"With all the chaos of the landscape that Eddie worked with, maybe he felt that it was just kinder to the golfer to give them softer greens. Ally Macintosh didn't think that way at all."


I noticed that comment from Kevin as well.
...

Ditto, but don't agree with Kevin.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2023, 02:58:35 PM »
...
 2. The backside of the blind route is not ideally aligned with the angle most golfers will come over. Part of this cannot be resolved due to landscape constraints. Part of it just needs different mowing lines, which I am trying to persuade the club to implement. These are primarily aimed at giving a hint of the ideal direction, partly by pulling the fairway partway (not whole way) over the saddle and partly by realigning the grass path up to the saddle. ...


If you use the current grass path up to the saddle to line up your shot and hit it on that line you can end up in the right rough. It didn't occur to me to use the path as a direction indicator so I suggested a pole or poles.

I drew my line trying to find the best line over the saddle to be in the fairway on the other side shading it a little to the right since the slope of the fairway would take it left on the other side. If not lined up with a grass path on this line you could adjust how far left or right of the upper end of the path to aim based on how far you anticipate carrying the ball. From the left, you would always be aiming left of the end of the grass path at the top, and from the right aim right of the end.

WAD#8_Option1 by Garland Bayley, on Flickr
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2023, 03:18:47 PM »
Agreed Garland. The objective is to use mowing lines in the fairway saddle and the grass path leading to it to give the golfer an intuitive best direction to land their ball. A single pole doesnít work given the varied starting points. You need two markers (in this case the start and end of a path) to give a direction.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Wild Atlantic Dunes #8 - Strategic? Controversial? Good? Bad? Ugly?
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2023, 04:40:18 PM »
Many an interesting point herein.
Curious the way some holes are treated. There are quirky par-3ís and quirky par-4ís and they frequently get praised sometimes almost eulogised. What we have under discussion here is something similar although rather rarer, a quirky par-5.
Perhaps we should embrace the hole for what it is rather than attempt to dissect and analyse it? Just a thought.
Atb

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