News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Ted Sturges

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Lido (Wisconsin)
« on: July 25, 2023, 10:24:17 AM »
Headed up there to play the course on Thursday morning.  Other than Tom Doak, has anyone on this site played it yet?  What are your impressions?


-TS

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2023, 12:18:13 PM »
I was fortunate to play it back in mid-May and Peter Flory was in my group. I had a wonderful (stepping back in) time.

Avoid those fairway bunkers!

Hole-by-hole tour is here:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Lido/index.html
« Last Edit: August 29, 2023, 07:49:08 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2023, 12:21:44 PM »
Headed up there to play the course on Thursday morning.  Other than Tom Doak, has anyone on this site played it yet?  What are your impressions?


-TS


I will be there a week from Thursday!  Sorry to miss you by a week! 


Looking forward to it.
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2023, 06:49:36 PM »
Headed up there to play the course on Thursday morning.  Other than Tom Doak, has anyone on this site played it yet?  What are your impressions?


-TS


I will be there a week from Thursday!  Sorry to miss you by a week! 


Looking forward to it.


And Iíll be there with Daryl. Canít wait.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ted Sturges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2023, 02:46:38 PM »
It's pretty amazing.  You all are in for a treat.  Having only seen the computer generated model of Lido, I can't say how it would compare to the original, but I can say without reservation that it is really fun and very unique.  As a set of 18 greens, they are for sure the largest I have ever seen.  The 18th green alone is 25,000 square feet (that is half an acre).  Great redan...great Biarritz.  Great Eden and Short holes.  The greens are the crown jewel of the course...and they are REALLY FAST (already).


TS

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2023, 03:43:17 PM »
The greens are the crown jewel of the course...and they are REALLY FAST (already).


TS


Is that a good thing ?


Niall

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2023, 05:26:35 PM »
The greens are the crown jewel of the course...and they are REALLY FAST (already).


TS


Is that a good thing ?


Niall


Just like 1914
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2023, 04:50:35 PM »
As a set of 18 greens, they are for sure the largest I have ever seen.
Are the greens at Lido larger than those at Old Macdonald?

I'll bet Tom Doak will know.

WW

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2023, 06:10:54 PM »
As a set of 18 greens, they are for sure the largest I have ever seen.
Are the greens at Lido larger than those at Old Macdonald?

I'll bet Tom Doak will know.

WW


I haven't heard the final statistics on Lido's greens.  I'm guessing they are not quite as large as Old Macdonald's were to start with . . . but I am not sure that Old Mac's greens are as big as they used to be, either!

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2023, 08:36:16 PM »
I too will be there next week. Also hope to play some of the Sedge Valley holes. Also looking forward to a return trip to Lawsonia and the redone bunkers.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2023, 08:56:57 PM »
I too will be there next week. Also hope to play some of the Sedge Valley holes. Also looking forward to a return trip to Lawsonia and the redone bunkers.


Only the back nine are finished.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2023, 04:49:48 PM »
I too will be there next week. Also hope to play some of the Sedge Valley holes. Also looking forward to a return trip to Lawsonia and the redone bunkers.

Only the back nine are finished.


Actually the whole course is now seeded, but the holes where you could hit a ball around right now are either 1-4 plus 16-18, or maybe 1-8, plus 15-18.  We hope to take a first crack at all of them as a preview to the Renaissance Cup in October, which we are playing on a Macdonald design, for some reason. ;-)

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2023, 09:39:13 PM »
Well, I played Lido today with three friends. I was expecting it to be good, but it was just shy of stupendous. There were half a dozen lines I could have taken off most of the tees. The bunkers are over my head deep, so if you pick a line, execute the shot. The greens have a lot of movement, but the speed was perfect for the slope. The greens were very firm, so getting close to the pin demanded a lot of imagination. A friend of mine said it was a unicorn. It is not something you see very often. I found some places that reminded me of National and other places of Chicago Golf, but mostly it is its own thing. Tom, you did a miraculous job building it. I was thinking that the movement in the fairways must have been a headache to build with all the bumps, mounds, and valleys. Well done.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2023, 02:13:51 AM »
Well, I played Lido today with three friends. I was expecting it to be good, but it was just shy of stupendous. There were half a dozen lines I could have taken off most of the tees. The bunkers are over my head deep, so if you pick a line, execute the shot. The greens have a lot of movement, but the speed was perfect for the slope. The greens were very firm, so getting close to the pin demanded a lot of imagination. A friend of mine said it was a unicorn. It is not something you see very often. I found some places that reminded me of National and other places of Chicago Golf, but mostly it is its own thing. Tom, you did a miraculous job building it. I was thinking that the movement in the fairways must have been a headache to build with all the bumps, mounds, and valleys. Well done.
Also thanks to Peter Flory who had to identify all the bumps, mounds and valleys.  Exciting project.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2023, 08:59:47 AM »
I will be playing Lido Tuesday/Wednesday next week  -Aug 8/9.
Then racing back to Chicago to see Bruce Springsteen at Wrigley Field!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2023, 12:32:08 PM »
A friend of mine said it was a unicorn. It is not something you see very often. I found some places that reminded me of National and other places of Chicago Golf, but mostly it is its own thing. Tom, you did a miraculous job building it.


Tommy:


Thanks for this but I am getting way too much credit for being part of that team.  I am used to working with people like Brian Schneider but in those other cases it makes sense for my name to go first because at the end of the day those courses are my designs.  The Lido is a Macdonald design, which left me with not much to do but interpret Peter Flory's work and put my two cents in as Brian Schneider and Brian Zager did their thing.  It's not like I had any great ideas out there.


The one thing I did do, that I kind of regret, was to figure out how to space the holes wider for safety's sake.  The result is a course that feels huge, when I believe the original course would have felt much more intimate.  There would certainly have been some safety issues if we had built a spot-on replica . . . the 5th hole was too close to the 13th, and the 17th was a danger to both 16 and 11 . . . but that was only really a problem if the course was pretty busy, and I don't know that they will allow our version to get that busy.


The one thing you single out correctly is the nature of the bunkers.  They are nasty deep, so you find out pretty quickly you do not want to be in them, but they are also lurking everywhere if you aren't hitting the ball solidly.  One of my first rounds was played as a foursomes match with a pretty good partner, but he was having an off day with his longer clubs and I had about four shots from straight against the face of a 7- or 8-foot-deep bunker.  The bunkers are penal enough to actually enforce the strategy of play.  What a concept!

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2023, 06:00:00 PM »
Tom,


Excellent post. One for the record books.


Iím wondering what working on this project did for your appreciation of what Macdonald did in building the original Lido.


What was your previous perception of the Lido? Did this project significantly increase your perception?
Tim Weiman

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2023, 07:27:32 PM »
Tom,

Iím wondering what working on this project did for your appreciation of what Macdonald did in building the original Lido.

What was your previous perception of the Lido? Did this project significantly increase your perception?




The project DID increase my perception of the Lido.


I figured that a large part of the mystique about the course was that it was right on the ocean, on one side, and the Intracoastal Waterway on the other.  [I am very familiar with how that changes people's perceptions.]


I knew that there were a few holes at Lido that Macdonald hadn't built many versions of, and that was one of the keys to convincing him to take the project, that he could build any hole he wanted.  It also included Tom Simpson's 15th hole and Alister MacKenzie's 18th hole [and some random guy's 6th hole!] from the Lido competition.  But, I had no appreciation for holes like the 2nd and 5th and 7th, or for how severe the 12th was/is.


How much of that would I attribute to Macdonald?  I honestly don't know.  I kind of doubt that C.B. had a lot more to do with the plasticine model of the course than I did with Peter Flory's computer model.  But, whoever did all of the legwork to create the model they built from, most of it was inspired by Macdonald's trips to Scotland and his reflections about what holes were most worthy of imitation and what were the key elements of said holes.    So it's still a Macdonald design, in my eyes.  And that was fun to be a part of.


I honestly didn't know when we started if the assumption that it would be a top-100 course was way off base, because it is not next to the ocean.  But Chicago Golf Club is not next to the ocean, and it's rated pretty highly, and the guys from Chicago Golf who have been up there are some of Lido's biggest fans.  So, either Chicago Golf Club is about to take a huge hit in the rankings, or The Lido is going to be ranked pretty highly.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2023, 08:27:10 PM »
I was going to begin a new thread, but I'll comment here. Lido is one of the best courses I have ever played. I played it with three very good friends who are 25 years younger than I am. We played different tees and hit it different lengths. There are a half dozen shot options off the tees, depending on how far you hit it or how much of a chance you are willing to take. My caddie told me to trust him and forget what the other guys were doing. They would hit it in one direction, and I was told to hit it 20 degrees left or right or lay up in front of the trap. Once you commit to a shot, you have to execute it because the penalty for missing your line is great. Shots into the greens were demanding. They were firm. The younger guys hit it high and could stop the ball, On most of the holes, I could run it up. On other holes, I had to hit it short. Since the scorecard does not have numbers, I can't remember which hole is which. For instance, the tee shot over the little lake is one thing, but the fortress green is amazing. The other guys could hit it on the green. I could have made the green, but my shot would have bounded over. I laid up and had a sand wedge into a green that had a castle in front of it.


I have never played a course that required more thought and better execution. Fortunately, I hit my tee ball where I wanted it to go and got up and down 3 out of five times from green-side bunkers and was not in a fairway bunker.


Every other course is boring compared to Lido. And it was fun. The round is in my top ten most fun days on a golf course.


Hopefully, Daryl Boe will comment. We played it together.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2023, 09:13:47 PM »
OK Tom and Tommy (and Brian) this has moved to the top of my must-play list.  Is 2023 the year to play or does the course need more seasoning?

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2023, 09:51:10 PM »
Tom,

Iím wondering what working on this project did for your appreciation of what Macdonald did in building the original Lido.

What was your previous perception of the Lido? Did this project significantly increase your perception?




The project DID increase my perception of the Lido.


I figured that a large part of the mystique about the course was that it was right on the ocean, on one side, and the Intracoastal Waterway on the other.  [I am very familiar with how that changes people's perceptions.]


I knew that there were a few holes at Lido that Macdonald hadn't built many versions of, and that was one of the keys to convincing him to take the project, that he could build any hole he wanted.  It also included Tom Simpson's 15th hole and Alister MacKenzie's 18th hole [and some random guy's 6th hole!] from the Lido competition.  But, I had no appreciation for holes like the 2nd and 5th and 7th, or for how severe the 12th was/is.


How much of that would I attribute to Macdonald?  I honestly don't know.  I kind of doubt that C.B. had a lot more to do with the plasticine model of the course than I did with Peter Flory's computer model.  But, whoever did all of the legwork to create the model they built from, most of it was inspired by Macdonald's trips to Scotland and his reflections about what holes were most worthy of imitation and what were the key elements of said holes.    So it's still a Macdonald design, in my eyes.  And that was fun to be a part of.


I honestly didn't know when we started if the assumption that it would be a top-100 course was way off base, because it is not next to the ocean.  But Chicago Golf Club is not next to the ocean, and it's rated pretty highly, and the guys from Chicago Golf who have been up there are some of Lido's biggest fans.  So, either Chicago Golf Club is about to take a huge hit in the rankings, or The Lido is going to be ranked pretty highly.
Tom,


Thanks. Seems like it was both a unique and interesting experience for you, Peter and Brian and Brian.
Tim Weiman

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2023, 06:58:23 AM »
I will be playing Lido Tuesday/Wednesday next week  -Aug 8/9.
Then racing back to Chicago to see Bruce Springsteen at Wrigley Field!
Is Bruce singing "Take me out to the ball game" during the 7th inning stretch? ::)
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2023, 08:03:48 AM »

I have never played a course that required more thought and better execution. Fortunately, I hit my tee ball where I wanted it to go and got up and down 3 out of five times from green-side bunkers and was not in a fairway bunker.



Tommy


You refer to never having played a course that required more thought - who was doing the thinking, you or your caddy ?


Also, you played different tees to your playing partners - what was the reason ? Are there forced carries on the further back tees that you couldn't carry ?


Niall

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2023, 09:17:31 PM »
I "played" it June 12...but truth of the matter (am the reason for the quotation marks) was that I only played two holes.  Played with two friends, Jeff Lewis and Jeremy Brofsky.  Age is getting to me and the sand surface between tees and fairway was still fairly soft (no carts were allowed as they would get bogged down in softer sections of this sand).  But they came out to rescue me and then drove me around to see the layout in a maintenance 4 wheel drive cart.  Based on what I saw and the very little I played, I was in awe.  Fairways are just like Tom Doak described in the recent You Tube video about its creation..."rumply".  Hardly a flat lie anywhere but "smoothly" rumply (in other words very different from the untamed rumply of the lies at Pennard GC in Wales.  The bunkers are nothing short of frightening given their depth, placement and the angles on some of the forward walls.  To be avoided at all costs.


In summary I loved it.  Nothing like it anywhere IMO...maybe National on steroids...but not "over the line".  I will be very surprised if it is not a USA Top 25 somewhere very soon and  world top 40-50 as well...real question is how long until it gets the necessary minimum number of reviews/votes.


One interesting fact is that it is said they moved over 2,000,000 cubic yards of sand in building Lido.  I have always had issues visualizing in three dimensions...but try this for the 2 million cu yds quantity.   The original Lido was built on 130 acres (WI's is bigger to provide enough space between holes to satisfy insurance underwriters).  2.0 million cu yards spread evenly over 130 acres yields an average depth of 9'6".  Amazing!!







Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lido (Wisconsin)
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2023, 10:33:29 PM »
I "played" it June 12...but truth of the matter (am the reason for the quotation marks) was that I only played two holes.  Played with two friends, Jeff Lewis and Jeremy Brofsky.  Age is getting to me and the sand surface between tees and fairway was still fairly soft (no carts were allowed as they would get bogged down in softer sections of this sand).  But they came out to rescue me and then drove me around to see the layout in a maintenance 4 wheel drive cart.  Based on what I saw and the very little I played, I was in awe.  Fairways are just like Tom Doak described in the recent You Tube video about its creation..."rumply".  Hardly a flat lie anywhere but "smoothly" rumply (in other words very different from the untamed rumply of the lies at Pennard GC in Wales.  The bunkers are nothing short of frightening given their depth, placement and the angles on some of the forward walls.  To be avoided at all costs.


In summary I loved it.  Nothing like it anywhere IMO...maybe National on steroids...but not "over the line".  I will be very surprised if it is not a USA Top 25 somewhere very soon and  world top 40-50 as well...real question is how long until it gets the necessary minimum number of reviews/votes.


One interesting fact is that it is said they moved over 2,000,000 cubic yards of sand in building Lido.  I have always had issues visualizing in three dimensions...but try this for the 2 million cu yds quantity.   The original Lido was built on 130 acres (WI's is bigger to provide enough space between holes to satisfy insurance underwriters).  2.0 million cu yards spread evenly over 130 acres yields an average depth of 9'6".  Amazing!!
Paul,


Glad you got to see the Lido and that the guys took care of you.


Honestly, at the risk of over hyping the course, I have been wondering how high it will be ranked today given how much people thought of it years ago.


Hope you are well.


Tim
Tim Weiman

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back