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Tim Martin

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Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« on: July 20, 2023, 07:48:27 AM »
Holes 3 (1st hole for members) and 18 at Hoylake have internal out of bounds. Although not a one off as it was in play this year at the PGA at Oak Hill and the Open at Royal Portrush in 2019 it is a rarity. Brooks Koepka was quoted as saying ďItís fine. Just donít hit it over there and you wonít have a problem, right?Ē. What other courses have this feature and how often does it carry a risk/reward component if challenged?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2023, 08:03:08 AM by Tim Martin »

Ben Stephens

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2023, 07:58:01 AM »
Carnoustie has internal out of bounds where the Burnside course comes in.


Hoylake has been like this for over 100 years and the moat is the outline of the old racecourse that was there.


Piping Rock with its Polo Grounds?


There should be a number of golf courses in the world with practice area and driving range that are internal and OOB




Tim Martin

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2023, 08:05:22 AM »
Having it play down most of the right side on 18 is sure to provide plenty of drama. Usually when I see the feature it is for safety reasons.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2023, 08:11:42 AM »
Hoylake used to have lots more OB. Colt's famous Royal hole, the seventeenth for normal play, the opener in the Open routing, had the green hard against the course boundary -- you could potentially putt OB. And the seventh (ninth on the Open routing), Dowie, was for many years regarded as among the world's most legendary one shot holes -- Darwin called it one of the best in the world. It had OB hard against the left side of the green. Both greens were remodelled, Dowie in a quest for fairness, Royal because it was impossible to get spectators around the side of the green, so it had to go to before the Open came back in 2006.
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Sean_A

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2023, 09:39:59 AM »
Holes 3 (1st hole for members) and 18 at Hoylake have internal out of bounds. Although not a one off as it was in play this year at the PGA at Oak Hill and the Open at Royal Portrush in 2019 it is a rarity. Brooks Koepka was quoted as saying ďItís fine. Just donít hit it over there and you wonít have a problem, right?Ē. What other courses have this feature and how often does it carry a risk/reward component if challenged?

If calling the OoB at Hoylake internal then tons of courses will have internal OoB clubhouses, parking lots, halfway houses, pools, tennis courts, maintenance sheds and driving ranges.

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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2023, 10:02:10 AM »
The internal OOB at Oak Hill was unique, as you had to reach the 7th fairway in order to suffer the penalty.


I'm fine with the internal OOB on 18 at Hoylake. I'd like to see the line a bit close to the stands, however.
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Kyle Harris

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2023, 10:05:59 AM »
This always confuses me.

Internal OB is OB that is otherwise part of the same golf course.

Internal OB is not the clubhouse, or the driving range, or an adjacent golf course. That's just... Out of Bounds.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2023, 10:23:41 AM »
Hoylake used to have lots more OB. Colt's famous Royal hole, the seventeenth for normal play, the opener in the Open routing, had the green hard against the course boundary -- you could potentially putt OB. And the seventh (ninth on the Open routing), Dowie, was for many years regarded as among the world's most legendary one shot holes -- Darwin called it one of the best in the world. It had OB hard against the left side of the green. Both greens were remodelled, Dowie in a quest for fairness, Royal because it was impossible to get spectators around the side of the green, so it had to go to before the Open came back in 2006.


Yep.  That was the course that I first saw, and grew to admire.  From that viewpoint they have sold their soul.


The course when I first saw it had "cops" or artificial boundaries in play on holes 1, 6, 7, 16, and 18, IIRC, plus the road behind 17.  The tee shot at 6 was sometimes compared to that of the Road hole, but you didn't drive it over the boundary and back . . . it was just very tight up the left side to about 240 yards and then widened out, and that was a pretty long carry back then.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2023, 10:27:15 AM by Tom_Doak »

Thomas Dai

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2023, 10:30:59 AM »
Internal OB is fine by me. In fact if combined with the 'cop' banks or something similar is a feature I'd be happy to see more of.
What I'm not so keen on is the amount of buildings within it and nearby too.

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Later edit (additions) below -






« Last Edit: July 21, 2023, 04:19:00 PM by Thomas Dai »

Sean_A

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2023, 11:14:19 AM »
This always confuses me.

Internal OB is OB that is otherwise part of the same golf course.

Internal OB is not the clubhouse, or the driving range, or an adjacent golf course. That's just... Out of Bounds.


I agree. When Is the last time you saw a driving range next to a hole that was in bounds?  I am not sure what folks expect. Of course the practice ground is OoB.


Tom


It was continue to host the Open or OoB. In the case of Royal it was very feasible that the hole should be altered even without the Open. I saw balls go into the road. I can't imagine what would be happening these days. As for Dowie, once the club owned the land to the left, what is the point of the OoB? The boundary created the hard OoB.


That said, I like it when courses have a defining elements even if I don't like the elements. OoB was Hoylake's.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Iona, Tobermory, Minehead & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Tom_Doak

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2023, 11:49:36 AM »

That said, I like it when courses have a defining elements even if I don't like the elements. OoB was Hoylake's.



That's exactly what I meant, too.  They took the defining characteristic of the course and gutted it significantly, in order to get The Open back.  But then what's the justification for the new work?  It looks like it's made for American TV.  It's exactly the sort of move that gets described as "American" when they do it at Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart, but at least those places were trying to look like a links.

Kyle Harris

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2023, 11:58:43 AM »
This always confuses me.

Internal OB is OB that is otherwise part of the same golf course.

Internal OB is not the clubhouse, or the driving range, or an adjacent golf course. That's just... Out of Bounds.


I agree. When Is the last time you saw a driving range next to a hole that was in bounds?  I am not sure what folks expect. Of course the practice ground is OoB.



Ask Jordan Speith.  ;D
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Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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Sean_A

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2023, 12:49:23 PM »
This always confuses me.

Internal OB is OB that is otherwise part of the same golf course.

Internal OB is not the clubhouse, or the driving range, or an adjacent golf course. That's just... Out of Bounds.


I agree. When Is the last time you saw a driving range next to a hole that was in bounds?  I am not sure what folks expect. Of course the practice ground is OoB.


Ask Jordan Speith.  ;D

For the members that practice ground was OoB. Honestly, I think the R&A never thought anybody would hit a ball that far right where tv vehicles etc were parked. It wasn't marked. Spieth got very lucky.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Iona, Tobermory, Minehead & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Kalen Braley

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2023, 12:58:33 PM »
The driving range isn't OB at Cypress Point, (or at least it wasn't when i was there) so I guess it can't be that bad?

Thomas Dai

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2023, 01:02:18 PM »
Isnít play, or rather Ďcan beí if the player so wishes, on the 18th at Royal Dublin across the OB practice ground?
Atb

Bill Crane

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2023, 01:59:18 PM »
Perhaps I am not a flexible as I think I am.


I equate internal out of bounds with courses in the US that have a routing flaw or other issue to resolve, such as doglegs that can be cut by hitting through the next hole.  Intenal OB is set up to prevent bombing players on another hole.


What is the reason for OB at Hoylake - does it create a different type of feature on a course that is largely flat?


I usually like old style quirky features, maybe I am just biased here due to some crappy courses I played years ago.

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Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2023, 03:16:58 PM »
The only internal OB I am familiar with is #16 at Poplar Creek in San Mateo (the course on the left as your flight approaches SFO). I'm pretty sure this was added to prevent players from playing the 14th fairway, but I find it interesting that it's only OB in one direction, the stakes aren't OB when playing the 14th.
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Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2023, 03:35:58 PM »
There is no internal out of bounds at Hoylake!


The practice ground lies in the middle of the course but it is not a part of the course. It is an entirely separate piece of ground and is appropriately marked as OOB. That the club owns both pieces of ground is completely irrelevant.


True internal OOB is an entirely artificial construct where both sides of the line are part of the course and in play. On older courses it is normally imposed for H&S reasons. On newer courses it is a sign of a flawed or incompetent design.

Phil Young

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2023, 03:41:32 PM »
The right side of the 1st hole on Bethpage Black is out of bounds from the middle of the rough separating it from the Green course. It is to protect those who are playing the 1st hole on the Green course as some players will 'fade' it a bit too far and end up in the Green's fairway. They will then attempt to get on the 1st green of the Black by playing directly over the 1st green of the Green Course. It remains OOB during all tournaments held on it.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2023, 03:43:45 PM by Phil Young »

JohnVDB

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2023, 04:04:39 PM »
If the definition of Intenral Out of Bounds is that a part of the course is out of bounds when playing a differ to hole, Oakmont and many others have IOB.  The holes on one side of the turnpike are out of bounds when playing the ones on the other side. Most course that have holes on opposite sides of a public road have that. I donít consider that Internal OB.  Neither do I consider parts of the property that are not holes such as driving ranges and clubhouses.



I would say it is anywhere where two holes are adjacent to each other and one hole is OB during the play of the other. See holes 5 and 6 at Pacific Grove Muni.  It may be the case that it only applies when playing one of the holes.  I believe the 13th  at Pacific Grove is OB when playing the 12th but not the other way.

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2023, 04:46:25 PM »
I believe the 13th at Pacific Grove is OB when playing the 12th but not the other way.
This is correct: #12, Rocky Shores, Pacific Grove GL
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Sean_A

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2023, 06:19:12 PM »

That said, I like it when courses have a defining elements even if I don't like the elements. OoB was Hoylake's.


That's exactly what I meant, too.  They took the defining characteristic of the course and gutted it significantly, in order to get The Open back.  But then what's the justification for the new work?  It looks like it's made for American TV.  It's exactly the sort of move that gets described as "American" when they do it at Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart, but at least those places were trying to look like a links.

Logistically the Open 17th doesn't make much sense. The transition is dreadful and there is no view from the tee. Seems like a hole built specifically for the Open.

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 21, 2023, 03:01:05 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Iona, Tobermory, Minehead & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Rob Marshall

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2023, 09:44:21 PM »
Tim,
At Oak Hill it wasnít really in play. It was only for the tournament. They removed trees on the right of 6 and they didnít want players playing 6 up the 7th fairway. It was really a safety issue. I donít think anyone went OB.
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Pat Burke

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2023, 10:14:57 PM »
The OB that got in my head was left of 18 green at Carnoustie. Over cook an approach just a bit and it rolled right there.
It definitely got to me  :D

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Internal Out of Bounds at Hoylake
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2023, 01:00:30 AM »
Watched Golf Channel and they had some first rounds stats on the IOB on the 18th hole.  4 balls OB off the tee shot, 6 balls OB on second shots.


To add to the list of IOB holes, Lake Oswego CC (OR) has one on the right side of the 10th hole, a dogleg right par 5 which bends about 70*

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