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Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2026 Open Championship Venue
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2023, 03:49:48 AM »
What do you mean Adam? ;D
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2026 Open Championship Venue
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2023, 12:14:59 PM »
Not trying to be obtuse here.

But is there a reason why they don't invest in better road capacity/throughput in the UK when outside of major areas?  Based on some of the pictures i've seen and stories heard, even the two lane roads barely qualify as that...

It's been proved beyond doubt that building more road capacity creates more traffic. We have more traffic than we need, and we don't need to tarmac over more of our green and pleasant land. The roads are fine, unless you're used to driving American tanks.


Adam,

I understand your point and it is certainly a fine line.

But there is a difference between incurring additional traffic and keeping up with basic minimums in capacity/throughput to handle current load somewhat efficiently.  It looks like modern roads and highways are evident in cities like Glasgow, etc. so there is precedent.

I'm sure those rural roads served their purpose well at one point in time, but it looks like they gave up near the end of the horse & buggy era.

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2026 Open Championship Venue
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2023, 03:29:23 PM »
It's been proved beyond doubt that building more road capacity creates more traffic.
But there is a difference between incurring additional traffic and keeping up with basic minimums in capacity/throughput to handle current load somewhat efficiently.  It looks like modern roads and highways are evident in cities like Glasgow, etc. so there is precedent.

You can't really keep up with capacity and throughput unfortunately. Induced demand means that people are already willing to tolerate a certain amount of pain in transit, so others are not. We should expect any added capacity to be consumed by those train riders like Adam, which should lead to exactly the same amount of pain in the future, but with a wide, problematic thoroughfare cutting the villages.

I don't disagree with the problem, it just seem odd that they have rail access to puny Drem, but not to the coastal villages. Rerouting the North Berwick line as a loop from Longniddry might be way to dramatically increase transportation capacity for visitors without dramatically effecting small town feel of the villages.
Building an encyclopedia of golf courses that anyone can edit: Golf Course Wiki
Some strong opinions on golf: Wigs on the Green
I really think golf culture should be more like beer culture than wine culture

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2026 Open Championship Venue
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2023, 01:08:13 AM »
What are they doing with the 14th hole?
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2026 Open Championship Venue
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2023, 02:33:46 AM »
Not trying to be obtuse here.

But is there a reason why they don't invest in better road capacity/throughput in the UK when outside of major areas?  Based on some of the pictures i've seen and stories heard, even the two lane roads barely qualify as that...

It's been proved beyond doubt that building more road capacity creates more traffic. We have more traffic than we need, and we don't need to tarmac over more of our green and pleasant land. The roads are fine, unless you're used to driving American tanks.


Adam,

I understand your point and it is certainly a fine line.

But there is a difference between incurring additional traffic and keeping up with basic minimums in capacity/throughput to handle current load somewhat efficiently.  It looks like modern roads and highways are evident in cities like Glasgow, etc. so there is precedent.

I'm sure those rural roads served their purpose well at one point in time, but it looks like they gave up near the end of the horse & buggy era.

Would be better to re-open the countless lines to places which existed 100 years ago! But rail is privately owned and it isn't economically viable to do so.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Askernish, Traigh, Iona, Tobermory, Portpatrick & Cruden Bay St Olaf

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2026 Open Championship Venue
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2023, 07:43:52 AM »
Not trying to be obtuse here.

But is there a reason why they don't invest in better road capacity/throughput in the UK when outside of major areas?  Based on some of the pictures i've seen and stories heard, even the two lane roads barely qualify as that...


It's been proved beyond doubt that building more road capacity creates more traffic. We have more traffic than we need, and we don't need to tarmac over more of our green and pleasant land. The roads are fine, unless you're used to driving American tanks.


+1 and I regularly drive an American tank in the US.
Having driven in most every region of the UK, I've seen very little problem with road capacity in the UK.(compared to what I regulalry see inthe US)


Living in the traffic hell that is Long Island, and commuting around the Metro region of New York, I'd say we have zero right to comment on anyone's road syestem.And post covid, the entire I-95 from Miami-Boston is a parking lot. (used to be just Philly-Boston)
Interestingly, now that I winter in my hometown area of Augusta and Aiken, I'm STUNNED at the amount of time(2-3 minutes EACH light) spent at red lights when there's NO ONE else at the interesction.
Why we haven't adopted traffic circles is beyond me.


The idea that some road capacity needs to he added so they can add another 20,000 fans at Turnberry is bonkers to me.
and the UK does an outstanding job with their "green and pleasant" land, unlike the US, which has/had it in abundance, and churns through/blights it like it's an infinite resource.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2026 Open Championship Venue
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2023, 08:02:33 AM »
Not trying to be obtuse here.

But is there a reason why they don't invest in better road capacity/throughput in the UK when outside of major areas?  Based on some of the pictures i've seen and stories heard, even the two lane roads barely qualify as that...


It's been proved beyond doubt that building more road capacity creates more traffic. We have more traffic than we need, and we don't need to tarmac over more of our green and pleasant land. The roads are fine, unless you're used to driving American tanks.


+1 and I regularly drive an American tank in the US.
Having driven in most every region of the UK, I've seen very little problem with road capacity in the UK.(compared to what I regulalry see inthe US)


Living in the traffic hell that is Long Island, and commuting around the Metro region of New York, I'd say we have zero right to comment on anyone's road syestem.And post covid, the entire I-95 from Miami-Boston is a parking lot. (used to be just Philly-Boston)
Interestingly, now that I winter in my hometown area of Augusta and Aiken, I'm STUNNED at the amount of time(2-3 minutes EACH light) spent at red lights when there's NO ONE else at the interesction.
Why we haven't adopted traffic circles is beyond me.


The idea that some road capacity needs to he added so they can add another 20,000 fans at Turnberry is bonkers to me.
and the UK does an outstanding job with their "green and pleasant" land, unlike the US, which has/had it in abundance, and churns through/blights it like it's an infinite resource.


"traffic circles"   ::)

Clearly you need to spend a lot more time over here...
Let's make GCA grate again!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2026 Open Championship Venue
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2023, 08:06:26 AM »
Not trying to be obtuse here.

But is there a reason why they don't invest in better road capacity/throughput in the UK when outside of major areas?  Based on some of the pictures i've seen and stories heard, even the two lane roads barely qualify as that...


It's been proved beyond doubt that building more road capacity creates more traffic. We have more traffic than we need, and we don't need to tarmac over more of our green and pleasant land. The roads are fine, unless you're used to driving American tanks.


+1 and I regularly drive an American tank in the US.
Having driven in most every region of the UK, I've seen very little problem with road capacity in the UK.(compared to what I regulalry see inthe US)


Living in the traffic hell that is Long Island, and commuting around the Metro region of New York, I'd say we have zero right to comment on anyone's road syestem.And post covid, the entire I-95 from Miami-Boston is a parking lot. (used to be just Philly-Boston)
Interestingly, now that I winter in my hometown area of Augusta and Aiken, I'm STUNNED at the amount of time(2-3 minutes EACH light) spent at red lights when there's NO ONE else at the interesction.
Why we haven't adopted traffic circles is beyond me.


The idea that some road capacity needs to he added so they can add another 20,000 fans at Turnberry is bonkers to me.
and the UK does an outstanding job with their "green and pleasant" land, unlike the US, which has/had it in abundance, and churns through/blights it like it's an infinite resource.


"traffic circles"   ::)

Clearly you need to spend a lot more time over here...


LOL-literally.
Where do I sign up for that duty?


I stand corrected-roundabout
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2026 Open Championship Venue
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2023, 01:42:12 PM »
But rail is privately owned and it isn't economically viable to do so.

It seems that ScotRail came back under public ownership since April 2022. That said, yes, the viability of any extra services is dubious. In the long run, the costs of rail are significantly lower than that of automobile infrastructure, but yes, rail service is more often than not seen as a redundancy to roads, and not an alternative.

At 3.5 miles, Drem to Gullane feels a perfect distance for a Brompton with a Sunday bag in tow.
Building an encyclopedia of golf courses that anyone can edit: Golf Course Wiki
Some strong opinions on golf: Wigs on the Green
I really think golf culture should be more like beer culture than wine culture

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2026 Open Championship Venue
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2023, 02:00:19 AM »
But rail is privately owned and it isn't economically viable to do so.

It seems that ScotRail came back under public ownership since April 2022. That said, yes, the viability of any extra services is dubious. In the long run, the costs of rail are significantly lower than that of automobile infrastructure, but yes, rail service is more often than not seen as a redundancy to roads, and not an alternative.

At 3.5 miles, Drem to Gullane feels a perfect distance for a Brompton with a Sunday bag in tow.

Thanks. I didn't realize Scotland re-nationalised the rail system. Makes sense given the government subsidies. I haven't looked into it, but trains do seem cheaper in Scotland than England. My brother was recently impressed with the system and the relatively cheap prices compared to east coast US.

I wish the government would have spent the HS2 money on upgrading what exists rather than creating a dubious "high speed" train between Manchester and London.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Askernish, Traigh, Iona, Tobermory, Portpatrick & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2026 Open Championship Venue
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2023, 11:07:48 AM »
Sean,


That's not quite correct. Network Rail, which owns, runs and maintains the infrastructure ie. the railway lines (including the ground it sits on), train stations, car parks etc., is basically a publicly owned entity. The rolling stock (trains) are however owned by private companies who in turn lease them to operators who run the trains. The operators have basically been granted a franchise. In certain instances, such as Scotland the service provided by the operators has been so poor that the government has taken the operation back off them. Irrespective of who wins the next election, I suspect that the running of the railways will be back in public hands throughout the UK by the end of the decade.


Niall   

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2026 Open Championship Venue
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2023, 05:47:58 PM »
Adam - the general public werenít driving through Sandwich, all parking was park and ride, same at St Andrews last year. The mistake at Sandwich was the lack of train and ride this time around, as you say itís a bit of a trek.


Iíd be surprised if St Andrews goes back to 5 yearly, my money is on 30, 40 and 50.
Cave Nil Vino

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2026 Open Championship Venue
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2023, 07:41:31 PM »
There was a train with a special stop at Muirfield but I donít remember if we then rode a shuttle. We did not have a car on the trip. I donít remember a long walk but maybe so.

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2026 Open Championship Venue
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2023, 09:00:19 PM »
Why we haven't adopted traffic circles is beyond me.


They've been building traffic circles/roundabouts off and on throughout the south. My family has a place at Ocean Isle Beach, NC, and they've replaced several stoplights in the area with them -- hoping it would alleviate the massive traffic jams that happen with weekly renters coming on/off the island on Saturdays.


The problem is that people don't know how to use them -- far too many people treat them like a four way stop sign and come to a stop even when there's an opening for them to enter the circle, so it creates its own problems. I was hopeful that would change as years passed, but they were installed several years ago and it's still a major issue. This summer police/volunteers were out directing traffic through the circles on those rental travel days (i.e. stopping people from three directions to let cars go from one direction) which defeats the purpose of having a circle.

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