[Bill Brightly]

Hi guys, long time no post by me. Help me out with your thoughts about daily pin sheets and/or stupid little white flags on flagsticks so golfers know where the cup is located.


I belong to a pretty decent ODG course. This year our Superintendent removed the stupid little white flag that told whether the pin was front, middle or back. I loved this change, just the clean look of the green, the greenside bunkering and the pin in the distance. On a handful of holes it was somewhat difficult to tell how much room I had in front of or in back of the pin. (Of course I still had my rangerfinder, I am not a total purest, so it wasn't a total mystery...) I loved the element of doubt I had to deal with; I knew this was the architect's intent.


The lower handicap players in my club went nuts, sent numerous texts to the Golf Chair and President. They caved and put the stupid little white flags back. (Thank God they refused to print daily pin sheets.)


Any thoughts from the treehouse? Should I just let it go or fight back and die on the sword?

[Ben Hollerbach]

Overall, I'd say let it go, especially if your main argument is purely aesthetics of the flag stick.

Not sure why you'd be against a pin sheet. It would be your best compromise. That way the flag sticks are kept clean and you can choose not to play with a pin sheet, preserving your element of doubt.

[Michael Moore]

"Persons grouped around a fire or candle for warmth or light are less able to pursue independent thoughts, or even tasks, than people supplied with an electric light. In the same way, the educational patterns latent in automation are those of self-employment and artistic autonomy." - Marshall Mcluhan

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Overall, I'd say let it go, especially if your main argument is purely aesthetics of the flag stick.

Not sure why you'd be against a pin sheet. It would be your best compromise. That way the flag sticks are kept clean and you can choose not to play with a pin sheet, preserving your element of doubt.

It's rare, but occasionally happens: I'm with Ben on this one, Bill.

I don't particularly like the little flags… but mostly because people sometimes seem to move them, often accidentally, and so… they don't really always illustrate where the flag is. My home course uses different colored flags (and no pin sheets) to indicate front 1/3, middle 1/3, or back 1/3. This is pretty common around where I live.

[Bill Brightly]

Overall, I'd say let it go, especially if your main argument is purely aesthetics of the flag stick.

My main argument is that it defeats the architect's intent: to create doubt. I know really good golfers hate doubt.


Daily pin sheets, if prepared correctly, require careful placement of the cup by the grounds crew so that each line on the sheet correctly reflects how far it is from the side and front of the green. (Versus the superintendent telling the pincutter  general sections of the green in a planned rotation.) That takes time and time is money when you have other tasks that a grounds crew could be doing.


And the stupid little white flags remind me that low handicappers want a crutch that they really should not need.

[Ben Hollerbach]

My main argument is that it defeats the architect's intent: to create doubt. I know really good golfers hate doubt.

Daily pin sheets, if prepared correctly, require careful placement of the cup by the grounds crew so that each line on the sheet correctly reflects how far it is from the side and front of the green. (Versus the superintendent telling the pincutter  general sections of the green in a planned rotation.) That takes time and time is money when you have other tasks that a grounds crew could be doing.

Do you actually have prose from the architect discussing the player knowing exactly where the flag is located, or are you just presuming that was their intent?

It’s been a long, long time since I’ve seen a precise daily pin sheet outside of a tournament round. It’s become very common to split each green into sectors and then posting somewhere near the first tee what sector the pin is located in on each green. Cycle through the sectors on a daily basis. It’s a simple system that gives the player a relative position of the pin and gives the super a schedule to set the pins.

Win win on all accounts

[Carl Rogers]

Combine this banning all range finders and adding a shot clock, then you might have something.

[Mark Kiely]

So you don't want any markings because the architect's intent is to create doubt, yet you use a rangefinder to eliminate any doubt whatsoever and get an exact number from anywhere? How do you square that argument? Are you in rangefinder sales?

[Matt Schoolfield]

I find different colored flags to be fine. Typically they are targeting the non-tech casual player. I understand the aesthetics, but once the tech was allowed in the door, it's basically a waste of everyone's time to not just signal immediately where something is. If I've got my gps and see a blue flag, I immediately no the casual number without needing to laser.

That said, if I were creating my own club. I think I would stick to white-out, red-in flags, with no signal to the players. This would allow low-tech play if players chose, but my club would be a match play club, and probably wouldn't even have a course rating from the match tees, so people could just relax and play.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I’m with Bill because I don’t like clutter and I don’t like course furniture.


Maybe it’s misplaced but I also just like one colour out and one colour in.


Pin sheets I hate because it interrupts the golfers journey. I don’t own a rangefinder for the same reason. I’m happy just eyeballing a yardage marker to the front of the green and then judging the bounce / roll / stopping power.


But then my fellow golfers consider me stupid not to be gaining advantage where I can. I’ll probably have to give in to an electric trolley soon as my shoulder is getting affected by consistent carrying. The quick glance down at the front / middle / back GPS on the trolley seems far less intrusive so I like that idea over all the others.

[Thomas Dai]

Just something else to make a simple ball, stick, hole game more complicated and expensive. And the majority of players hit the ball so badly such features make no damn difference to their scores.
atb

[corey miller]

And how many prestigious courses in the world have little white flags?  Appeal to the sense of snobbery and you may win.


I do feel that over time  both "pin sheets" and "numbered sectors" reduce the number of actual spots used during a season.


As a member of an ODG club that went through a wonderful restoration but now has others running the show (new pro,new super, new golf chair, new greens committee head, and even a new long term planning board, I suggest throwing up your hands and not giving a shit as you start the race back to the bottom. 

[Sean_A]

Just something else to make a simple ball, stick, hole game more complicated and expensive. And the majority of players hit the ball so badly such features make no damn difference to their scores.
atb

It seems any course innovations/trends in the past 25 years have made the game more complicated, intrusive, cumbersome or expensive.

Ciao

[Stewart Abramson]

g1729728 date=1684460238]

I belong to a pretty decent ODG course. This year our Superintendent removed the stupid little white flag that told whether the pin was front, middle or back. I loved this change, just the clean look of the green, the greenside bunkering and the pin in the distance. On a handful of holes it was somewhat difficult to tell how much room I had in front of or in back of the pin. (Of course I still had my rangerfinder, I am not a total purest, so it wasn't a total mystery...) I loved the element of doubt I had to deal with; I knew this was the architect's intent.


The lower handicap players in my club went nuts, sent numerous texts to the Golf Chair and President. They caved and put the stupid little white flags back. (Thank God they refused to print daily pin sheets.)


Any thoughts from the treehouse? Should I just let it go or fight back and die on the sword?[/size]



I don't think there is a good argument against a course providing pin location info.  I'm surprised those little white tabs on flagsticks bother anyone. They are quite inobtrusive, I'd let it go. (Do the big red baskets at Merion drive you nuts for messing with "the clean look of the green"? )

If you don't like the little white tabs, there are other commonly used methods to indicate hole location that you can suggest:

1. Different color flags, typically red for front, white or yellow for middle blue for back.

2. As many courses do, rotate the hole placements orderly throughout the 18 holes, front, middle back (repeat six times) one day; middle, back, front (repeat six times) another day; and back, front middle (repeat six times). On courses where they do this, they usually let players know  the sequence of the day and if they don't, you'll know it after playing one hole.

3. On courses that don't do a set orderly hole location sequence or that have more than three general hole locations, many have scorecards  using numbers to show hole locations and they post which number is the position number of he day. This is more common on public courses than private clubs though.

Most courses I've played, including many private clubs,  provide players with a way to know where the hole is located on each green. I'm not convinced that architects create many holes where not knowing the general hole location is an important part of the design. Isn't it often the opposite, where a hole is designed to require a different shot depending on hole location so knowing location is needed to know what shot is called for. In any event, as you use a range finder, I don't understand your concern about a course providing a different, less precise, method of determining hole location for players that don't use range finders.

[Mark_Fine]

Forget the little white flags, whose idea was it to shove a tall stick in the hole showing its location.  Let the golfer figure out where the hole is themselves. Plus the big flag someone decided to put on top of that stick helps show the direction and strength of the wind!  In addition we put yardages on sprinkler heads and now give golfers range finders so they can measure exact distances and slopes.  And as Bill says, some clubs even provide pin sheets to very clearly show daily hole locations.  When will it stop as it is crazy and surely not what the architect intended!


But last I checked, the golfer still has to execute the shot (Iron Byron can’t hit it for us) and still has to get the ball in the hole.  The average golfer despite all this extra advice and information still struggles to break 100.  And by the way, if golfers tried to figure out this information without all the help it might take them 6 hours to play their round instead of
only 5


The game is supposed to be fun and each of us can elect to use or not use whatever information and resources are available to add or take away from that enjoyment or challenge.  Most things that help speed up play are probably ok with me.  The game is hard enough as is.  And by the way, having the golfer know where the hole is definitely favors the golf architect. 

[Charlie Goerges]

Do you actually have prose from the architect discussing the player knowing exactly where the flag is located, or are you just presuming that was their intent?

I'm sure there is some writing on the subject, but we don't need it. The existence of forced perspective and other visual tricks shows their intent clearly enough. There'd be no reason to go through the trouble if it wasn't intended.

[V. Kmetz]

Combine this banning all range finders and adding a shot clock, then you might have something.

Yeah, an emptier place than before. 

[V. Kmetz]

Just something else to make a simple ball, stick, hole game more complicated and expensive. And the majority of players hit the ball so badly such features make no damn difference to their scores.
atb

It seems any course innovations/trends in the past 25 years have made the game more complicated, intrusive, cumbersome or expensive.

Ciao

Wha?  The little flags (tri-color or location) have been around since the 1970s...was little slidable "wiffle" spheres when they started.

[Mike Nuzzo]

How many hole locations (holes) are hard to discern on the course


Remove the little white flags for 3 reasons:
Play is slightly more challenging
It creates mystery a couple of times a round
It is an aesthetic improvement


p.s. play without the range finder to see if it makes a scoring difference for you

[Ben Hollerbach]

Do you actually have prose from the architect discussing the player knowing exactly where the flag is located, or are you just presuming that was their intent?

I'm sure there is some writing on the subject, but we don't need it. The existence of forced perspective and other visual tricks shows their intent clearly enough. There'd be no reason to go through the trouble if it wasn't intended.

I'm sorry Charlie, an architects use of forced perspective or other visual tricks does not confirm an architect's disdain for the player to have some knowledge of where the pin is located. One could argue the exact opposite.

It is only when the player's own visual assessment of the pins location is in contradiction with provided information that the desired doubt is created in the player's decision. The more knowledge a player has of the pins location, the more the architect can play with deception.

If a pin flag wasn't used at all, what impacts would visual tricks have on a players choice of play towards the green?

[Charlie Goerges]

Do you actually have prose from the architect discussing the player knowing exactly where the flag is located, or are you just presuming that was their intent?

I'm sure there is some writing on the subject, but we don't need it. The existence of forced perspective and other visual tricks shows their intent clearly enough. There'd be no reason to go through the trouble if it wasn't intended.

I'm sorry Charlie, an architects use of forced perspective or other visual tricks does not confirm an architect's disdain for the player to have some knowledge of where the pin is located. One could argue the exact opposite.

It is only when the player's own visual assessment of the pins location is in contradiction with provided information that the desired doubt is created in the player's decision. The more knowledge a player has of the pins location, the more the architect can play with deception.

If a pin flag wasn't used at all, what impacts would visual tricks have on a players choice of play towards the green?

You're reading too much into my statement. The intent to deceive is apparent, in the same way that the intent to drop something is apparent by letting it go. That's all. Even in 1920, the players would eventually get an idea of locations and distances without the contrivances we have now. The architects intended the deception knowing full-well that it would be eroded over time. I'm mostly fine with most of the various distance aids, my only point is the intent was there or they wouldn't have expended the effort to do it.

[Thomas Dai]

[quote author=Mike Nuzzo link=topic=71932.msg1729750#msg1729750 date=1684501393
It creates mystery a couple of times a round

‘Mystery’, not a word usually associated with golf but I love the thought. Splendid.
Atb

[Mark_Fine]

Why do they put a white stone on the hill at The Dell hole at Lahinch?  More mystery if they didn’t 😉

It is because it saves time from golfers walking up there or sending the caddie ahead to find out where the flagstick is that day.  The golfer still has to hit the shot.  Does the white stone ruin the architect’s intent?

[Ben Hollerbach]

Why do they put a white stone on the hill at The Dell hole at Lahinch?  More mystery if they didn’t

It is because it saves time from golfers walking up there or sending the caddie ahead to find out where the flagstick is that day.  The golfer still has to hit the shot.  Does the white stone ruin the architect’s intent?

[Sean_A]

Just something else to make a simple ball, stick, hole game more complicated and expensive. And the majority of players hit the ball so badly such features make no damn difference to their scores.
atb

It seems any course innovations/trends in the past 25 years have made the game more complicated, intrusive, cumbersome or expensive.

Ciao

Wha?  The little flags (tri-color or location) have been around since the 1970s...was little slidable "wiffle" spheres when they started.

Ok, the last 50 years 


Ciao

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