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Kalen Braley

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2023, 01:43:17 PM »
It took us about 400 years to realize that greens can be made too fast.
(Yet it remains the go to comment for any amateur review or consideration  in choosing or revering  a course)

I'm sure eventually we will find a way to make courses too firm.


I recently played a high end course with zoysia fairways and super firm fast, greens employing multiple tucked pins.
A really unpleasant combination that foiled nearly every creative recovery attempt except the high spinner.
Amazed anyone would go to the time,effort and extreme expense to get worse conditions than can be had for a fraction of the price.
And think the golf was somehow better.

You see this one Jeff!  ;D

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/ncaa-criticized-for-brutal-error-at-women-s-golf-championship/ar-AA1b7IlH?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=016f0919f87a4ff49d4b14476b6de5f4&ei=17

Thomas Dai

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2023, 02:25:42 PM »
Too fast, for sure. Too firm, not so sure.
atb

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2023, 07:25:54 PM »
It took us about 400 years to realize that greens can be made too fast.
(Yet it remains the go to comment for any amateur review or consideration  in choosing or revering  a course)

I'm sure eventually we will find a way to make courses too firm.


I recently played a high end course with zoysia fairways and super firm fast, greens employing multiple tucked pins.
A really unpleasant combination that foiled nearly every creative recovery attempt except the high spinner.
Amazed anyone would go to the time,effort and extreme expense to get worse conditions than can be had for a fraction of the price.
And think the golf was somehow better.

You see this one Jeff!  ;D

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/ncaa-criticized-for-brutal-error-at-women-s-golf-championship/ar-AA1b7IlH?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=016f0919f87a4ff49d4b14476b6de5f4&ei=17


I played in a tournament a bunch of years ago when the pin was in the wrong place for the speed of the greens. Many of us four and five putted, but the officials did nothing.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Kavanaugh

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2023, 07:39:19 PM »
It took us about 400 years to realize that greens can be made too fast.
(Yet it remains the go to comment for any amateur review or consideration  in choosing or revering  a course)

I'm sure eventually we will find a way to make courses too firm.


I recently played a high end course with zoysia fairways and super firm fast, greens employing multiple tucked pins.
A really unpleasant combination that foiled nearly every creative recovery attempt except the high spinner.
Amazed anyone would go to the time,effort and extreme expense to get worse conditions than can be had for a fraction of the price.
And think the golf was somehow better.

You see this one Jeff!  ;D

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/ncaa-criticized-for-brutal-error-at-women-s-golf-championship/ar-AA1b7IlH?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=016f0919f87a4ff49d4b14476b6de5f4&ei=17


I played in a tournament a bunch of years ago when the pin was in the wrong place for the speed of the greens. Many of us four and five putted, but the officials did nothing.


So, they get it right 99% of the time. Iíll always take a 1% chance of failure when living on the edge.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2024, 11:09:46 AM »
There is no way I could have played Augusta this past week. I don't hit the ball high enough. There are many holes where the player can run a ball onto the green, but I don't know what I could have done on 12 or 15. When is a course too fast and firm for every day play?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tim Gavrich

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2024, 04:48:57 PM »
When is a course too fast and firm for every day play?
When it makes it clear that the golf balls pros have become accustomed to do not spin enough.


If it is intentional (I suspect it might be), Augusta National's pursuit of firmer conditions for the Masters will help speed along golf ball regulations by pushing pros to use balls that spin more than the current models. I don't think anyone would have had a problem with this year's greens at the Masters if they had been using something like the old balata balls, which landed at a steeper angle because of their spin characteristics.


It's probably not extremely different in the short clubs, but the ball flies very differently with the longer clubs than it used to. It used to launch lower and spin more, which meant that the ball would land at a steeper angle. Remember those low, rising long irons and fairway woods players used to hit? That ballflight is not possible now, and the fact that balls land at a shallower angle means that greens play even firmer than they used to.


Amateur golfers have been sold distance and distance along for 20+ years. Millions of golfers play a ball that doesn't spin nearly enough, in part because OEMs just don't make spinny enough golf balls, because doing so would cause a loss in distance that golfers won't tolerate, even if it might be in their best interests.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

archie_struthers

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2024, 08:02:38 PM »
 8)


I'm in the firm and fast very good camp on this one. Hitting it high and far is often lost on youth. I'm also struggling with the too fast to play story as score isn't the only thing that matters. If you figure out how to make the best score given your abilities it still might get the job done in a match with players that can't embrace that decision.


Every year in club championships at most of our clubs the same people are in contention when the course is set up with a high degree of difficulty . Those players get it !   Sometimes you just have to play it to a spot to get a shot at par.  T


A steady diet of wickedly fast surfaces isn't a good idea in general but I'm pushing all in with Kavanaugh that it's a special kind of fun
when it occurs occasionally
« Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 08:54:17 PM by archie_struthers »

cary lichtenstein

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2024, 11:30:17 PM »
I used to hit the ball pretty high. I hated it when a green would not hold a well played shot, thought it was stupid architecture and over conditioning.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tim Gallant

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2024, 01:21:46 AM »
Reading this, I thought about Royal Troon. The first four or five holes usually get overlooked, but the prevailing wind is down and off the right. When the ground is firm, the bunkering makes approach play so difficult and complex as all of the trouble is at the front. A few of the greens even angle away from play, which complicates the questions asked. I hope we'll see that at this year's Open :)

Grant Saunders

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2024, 02:38:19 AM »
I canít decide if the course was too firm or if it was me. Iíd like to know what it is like 300 days a year. I did play up at 6000 yards. It wasnít too long.
Tommy--


I'd be interested to know what model of golf ball you play.


Late last year, I switched from the slightly longer Titleist Pro V1 to the firmer and slightly shorter but noticeably spinnier Titleist Pro V1x. It has made a significant difference to me on iron shots and wedges, including closer-in greenside shots. I've played better since I switched. The experience has suggested to me that the vast majority of golfers play a golf ball (or perhaps a combination of golf ball + irons and wedges) that does not spin nearly enough, and that that deficiency is really highlighted on very firm turf.


As average golf course conditions become firmer and faster - my sense is that this is happening, albeit very gradually and in fits and starts in different places - a golf ball that spins more on approaches and greenside shots will become more of an asset to the vast majority of golfers.


Distance has always been the feature that golf ball marketers have pushed, sometimes to the exclusion of everything else. But as more golfers realize they can solve their distance issues by simply moving up a tee box, I think spin becomes a more important factor in choosing the right golf ball for them.


I have often thought that the Pro V has negatively impacted the amateur golfer.


High spinning balls used to be the domain of the elite player and the average golfer managed their game with low spin but durable offerings. Those low spin balls supported the bump and run and other shots which employed the release of the ball. Lower lofted irons such as a 7 or 8 iron were used because the ball was inherently geared towards shots that release.


I watch a lot of club golf and average golfers using pro v balls and similar seem to find themselves in almost no-mans land when chipping or pitching. They cant spin the ball enough to have it always hold on the green yet the ball spins too much for a predictable bump and run

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2024, 03:15:02 AM »
I have often thought that the Pro V has negatively impacted the amateur golfer.
High spinning balls used to be the domain of the elite player and the average golfer managed their game with low spin but durable offerings. Those low spin balls supported the bump and run and other shots which employed the release of the ball. Lower lofted irons such as a 7 or 8 iron were used because the ball was inherently geared towards shots that release.
I watch a lot of club golf and average golfers using pro v balls and similar seem to find themselves in almost no-mans land when chipping or pitching. They cant spin the ball enough to have it always hold on the green yet the ball spins too much for a predictable bump and run
Very perceptive.
Atb

Tim Gavrich

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2024, 10:44:25 AM »

I have often thought that the Pro V has negatively impacted the amateur golfer.


High spinning balls used to be the domain of the elite player and the average golfer managed their game with low spin but durable offerings. Those low spin balls supported the bump and run and other shots which employed the release of the ball. Lower lofted irons such as a 7 or 8 iron were used because the ball was inherently geared towards shots that release.


I watch a lot of club golf and average golfers using pro v balls and similar seem to find themselves in almost no-mans land when chipping or pitching. They cant spin the ball enough to have it always hold on the green yet the ball spins too much for a predictable bump and run


I think there's a lot of truth to this, and I suspect it's at least part of the reason why golf balls like the AVX exist - low-launch, lower-spin. But the issues with this that I see are more on approach shots, where the combination of spin and landing angle doesn't seem to be serving golfers well. Part of it is self-inflicted - they're playing too long a set of tees - but I think there's a gulf between the golf balls needed and the ones available, too.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Matt MacIver

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2024, 11:17:29 AM »
Average golfers (Iím one) are in no-mans land because they canít hit greens with any club or ball in regulation. 


F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.


My view is the ball doesnít matter to us for backspin - but limiting sidespin matters a bunch. 


I play a softish ball mostly because I like to putt with them, eventually.

Charlie Goerges

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2024, 11:29:39 AM »
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.




That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

archie_struthers

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2024, 12:49:01 PM »
 ;D ;D


Charlie G that is so good!  The optimal turf condition ...

Brett Meyer

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2024, 01:24:12 PM »
Average golfers (Iím one) are in no-mans land because they canít hit greens with any club or ball in regulation. 


F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.


F&F is a great equalizer. The firmest and fastest course I've played in the US (maybe anywhere) is The Loop and I (usually shoots mid-70s) played it with my dad (struggles to break 100) last summer. We probably had our lowest-ever score differential; I shot 85 and he shot his best round of the year (96 or 97) as his drives and bad shots rolled out 50 yards further than usual, his bump-and-run game worked, and I struggled to hit greens and to figure out what are some very unusual demands on the short game (for an American course).

And he did equally well the second day when we played it in reverse. The key--which you mention Matt--is that weaker players get so much more out of their bad shots. It wouldn't be true for someone who's a bad golfer because they're really inaccurate, but it works great for someone who putters along, not hitting the ball too far and duffing it occasionally, but also not going too far offline.

jeffwarne

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2024, 01:26:32 PM »
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.




That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.


A cushion under the ball-what a concept-definitely not  fashionable at the moment.


Billions are spent(mostly) in this country at high end clubs to produce firm and fast.
they always get the FAST, and only occasionally the firm.
And the golf suffers as chipping and pitching go away for all but the best wedge players, due to the impossibility of pitching with no cushion, compounded by the often wet conditions to keep the scalped/rolled turf alive.


Yet, at the mostly country courses I played for a month in New Zealand they got FIRM every-single-day, despite the constant negativity I heard from the tree police about how over treed their courses were.
The secret was as George points out, they weren't going overboard with the attempts at FAST, with a reasonable HOC on the fairways and greens allowing healthy, bouncy firm turf-usually with one greenkeeper on $9-20 course.


Oh and here's the ironic part-they don't have to "renovate' their greens every few years out of the sheer genius of maintaining them at a height that works with the original slopes/tilts.
Not that they could anyway...
I pretty much throw up in my mouth whenever I hear an "expert" tell me about a  course with with well contoured tilt/slop(not tiers) being renovated to accommodate "modern speeds" like they are an unavoidable disease like hoof in mouth...
as if the problem was the greens..


"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

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Tim Gallant

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2024, 04:27:48 AM »
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.




That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.


Charlie, a sound post! And a bit more height also may keep balls on side/up/down slopes, which creates more interesting shots. Is there a course/example where you have seen an optimal balance being struck between firmness and reasonable height cut? Jeff's post makes me think the answer is somewhere in New Zealand :) ! Can't wait to make my maiden voyage there in a few years.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2024, 06:58:52 AM »
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.




That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.


Charlie, a sound post! And a bit more height also may keep balls on side/up/down slopes, which creates more interesting shots. Is there a course/example where you have seen an optimal balance being struck between firmness and reasonable height cut? Jeff's post makes me think the answer is somewhere in New Zealand :) ! Can't wait to make my maiden voyage there in a few years.

In the UK, I still reckon sheep nibbled height with no watering system is about as good as it gets. Those fairways will firm up in summer and make it relatively easy to match good green speeds (9ish is generally about right) and firmness. With very few exceptions, the best turf I play each year is grazed by sheep.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Mark Pearce

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Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2024, 07:13:20 AM »
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.




That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.


Charlie, a sound post! And a bit more height also may keep balls on side/up/down slopes, which creates more interesting shots. Is there a course/example where you have seen an optimal balance being struck between firmness and reasonable height cut? Jeff's post makes me think the answer is somewhere in New Zealand :) ! Can't wait to make my maiden voyage there in a few years.
I reckon most second tier links courses in the UK come pretty close.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2024, 08:10:28 AM »
In the UK, I still reckon sheep nibbled height with no watering system is about as good as it gets. Those fairways will firm up in summer and make it relatively easy to match good green speeds (9ish is generally about right) and firmness. With very few exceptions, the best turf I play each year is grazed by sheep.
Ciao
Absolutely!
atb

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2024, 08:21:16 AM »
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.




That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.


Charlie, a sound post! And a bit more height also may keep balls on side/up/down slopes, which creates more interesting shots. Is there a course/example where you have seen an optimal balance being struck between firmness and reasonable height cut? Jeff's post makes me think the answer is somewhere in New Zealand :) ! Can't wait to make my maiden voyage there in a few years.

In the UK, I still reckon sheep nibbled height with no watering system is about as good as it gets. Those fairways will firm up in summer and make it relatively easy to match good green speeds (9ish is generally about right) and firmness. With very few exceptions, the best turf I play each year is grazed by sheep.

Ciao


+1  such a great HOC, with the added benefit of finding one's ball in the rough.
the first place I really came to admire this was Mulranny.
Of course Ireland and UK have the climate where no irrigation (mostly-see summer of 2018) works, but here in the US we could certainly reduce USE of irrigation with a higher HOC, resulting in both the cushion AND the firmness.
Fast is vastly OVERRATED, and creates the need for reduced contour in both greens and now even fairways.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2024, 08:46:41 AM »
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.




That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.


Charlie, a sound post! And a bit more height also may keep balls on side/up/down slopes, which creates more interesting shots. Is there a course/example where you have seen an optimal balance being struck between firmness and reasonable height cut? Jeff's post makes me think the answer is somewhere in New Zealand :) ! Can't wait to make my maiden voyage there in a few years.

In the UK, I still reckon sheep nibbled height with no watering system is about as good as it gets. Those fairways will firm up in summer and make it relatively easy to match good green speeds (9ish is generally about right) and firmness. With very few exceptions, the best turf I play each year is grazed by sheep.

Ciao


+1  such a great HOC, with the added benefit of finding one's ball in the rough.
the first place I really came to admire this was Mulranny.
Of course Ireland and UK have the climate where no irrigation (mostly-see summer of 2018) works, but here in the US we could certainly reduce USE of irrigation with a higher HOC, resulting in both the cushion AND the firmness.
Fast is vastly OVERRATED, and creates the need for reduced contour in both greens and now even fairways.






Yes to all of this! I'm curious what anyone/everyone thinks would be be a good message/slogan around this to get the point across. This firmer and not-quite-so-fast conditioning with higher/dryer HOC. Supers can do it, but players need to be calling for it first.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I love and hate firm and fast.
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2024, 11:16:50 AM »
F&F actually helps long duffed shots get near/on the green but they also create tight lies making it near impossible to clip a wedge (or bump a 7i) consistently.




That may be how firm and fast typically gets manifested in this day and age, but it isn't a requirement of firm and fast. It is possible to raise the height of cut, dry out the turf and give us firmer, faster, bouncier conditions while leaving a good cushion under the ball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be fashionable at the moment.


Charlie, a sound post! And a bit more height also may keep balls on side/up/down slopes, which creates more interesting shots. Is there a course/example where you have seen an optimal balance being struck between firmness and reasonable height cut? Jeff's post makes me think the answer is somewhere in New Zealand :) ! Can't wait to make my maiden voyage there in a few years.

In the UK, I still reckon sheep nibbled height with no watering system is about as good as it gets. Those fairways will firm up in summer and make it relatively easy to match good green speeds (9ish is generally about right) and firmness. With very few exceptions, the best turf I play each year is grazed by sheep.

Ciao


+1  such a great HOC, with the added benefit of finding one's ball in the rough.
the first place I really came to admire this was Mulranny.
Of course Ireland and UK have the climate where no irrigation (mostly-see summer of 2018) works, but here in the US we could certainly reduce USE of irrigation with a higher HOC, resulting in both the cushion AND the firmness.
Fast is vastly OVERRATED, and creates the need for reduced contour in both greens and now even fairways.






Yes to all of this! I'm curious what anyone/everyone thinks would be be a good message/slogan around this to get the point across. This firmer and not-quite-so-fast conditioning with higher/dryer HOC. Supers can do it, but players need to be calling for it first.


Speed comes with firmness. If conditions are softer the speed is reduced. Thatís seasonal golfÖ.and that makes sense.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

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