[Tommy Williamsen]

I played a course a few weeks ago with some of the firmest and fastest fairways and greens I've ever played. I sure liked the conditions off the tee, although there were a couple of times the ball ran farther than my caddie or I thought it would and ran into a bunker. That was fine; I misjudged. Hitting to the greens, however, created problems for me. I hit what I thought were good shots, only to have them go through the greens. I played for the roll, and if I hit them any shorter, I'd have been in a bunker the ball, or it would have stayed short of the green. I loved the course, but the setup made it impossible for me to play it well. I don't hit the ball high enough to hold those greens anymore.

[Matt Schoolfield]

I’d be interested to know the holes. This set up makes angles in golf everything, and I love strategy.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I played a course a few weeks ago with some of the firmest and fastest fairways and greens I've ever played. I sure liked the conditions off the tee, although there were a couple of times the ball ran farther than my caddie or I thought it would and ran into a bunker. That was fine; I misjudged. Hitting to the greens, however, created problems for me. I hit what I thought were good shots, only to have them go through the greens. I played for the roll, and if I hit them any shorter, I'd have been in a bunker the ball, or it would have stayed short of the green. I loved the course, but the setup made it impossible for me to play it well. I don't hit the ball high enough to hold those greens anymore.

Truly firm and fast conditions can only be employed on courses that have been designed for truly firm and fast conditions.


I feel for you, Tommy.

[John Kavanaugh]

It’s the finest and most rare of all obstacles.

[Thomas Dai]

Happy to have all firm, really firm. Fairways, greens, the lot. What’s a real pain, or maybe an extra ‘challenge’, is when the approaches are irrigated but the greens are really hard and firm. Even more so if the hole is cut at the front. Land the ball short to run or trickle onto the green and the bloody ball will stick and stops on the approach. Fly it further onto the putting surface and bong, the balls bounced and gone long or over the green.
Atb

[Tommy Williamsen]

I’d be interested to know the holes. This set up makes angles in golf everything, and I love strategy.

I tried to figure out the angles. The other problem was that I was hitting longer clubs into the greens because I didn't hit it very far off the tee, even with those hard fairways. This was a very well-respected course. It was only the second time I have played it. It has a relatively old membership, so there must be a way to play it better than I did. However, neither my caddie nor I knew what that was. I want to get back there again.

[Mark_Fine]

Tommy,
Maybe the older members move up a set or two of tees?  Just a thought.
Mark

[John Kavanaugh]

Maybe the older members accept the deterioration of their skill sets and aren’t interested in screwing with the enjoyment of the newer members.

[Ken Moum]

."I want to get back there again."



That's the most important thing.


FWIW,  I've had the same problem only worse at my home course and moved up from 5400 yards to 4800. The "Play it Forward" chart was right.


I'm averaging no more than 175 off the with my good drives and 4800 is the recommendation.  Managed to break 80 for the first time in a long time.

[Tim Martin]

."I want to get back there again."



That's the most important thing.


FWIW,  I've had the same problem only worse at my home course and moved up from 5400 yards to 4800. The "Play it Forward" chart was right.


I'm averaging no more than 175 off the with my good drives and 4800 is the recommendation.  Managed to break 80 for the first time in a long time.

Ken-Congrats on getting it under 80. It’s a tough pill to swallow but when someone has a fairway wood, hybrid or long iron into most of the par fours it’s time to move up.

[Jim Sherma]

Green speed is the issue with true fast and firm conditions. Once green get fast enough that a pitch or long putt becomes a difficult question how is one supposed to weight a shot from full shot yardages. There's a reason that you see fairways running faster than greens in the UK+I  -it's so the run up shots can stop on the putting surfaces. Once you get green speeds fast enough the only way to get the ball to stop consistently is with spin, not bump and runs.

[Tim Martin]

Once you get green speeds fast enough the only way to get the ball to stop consistently is with spin, not bump and runs.

Jim-I agree as trying to judge the proper amount of runout is extremely difficult.

[Wade Whitehead]

Golf is so much more interesting when a player is trying to get the ball to stop than it is when s/he is trying to get the ball to go.

Tommy, fast and firm, at its best, can be maddening...and exhilarating.

WW

(Oh, and  played with Tom on the day in question.  Absolutely the firmest, fastest fairway surfaces I have ever seen)

[jeffwarne]

It took us about 400 years to realize that greens can be made too fast.
(Yet it remains the go to comment for any amateur review or consideration  in choosing or revering  a course)

I'm sure eventually we will find a way to make courses too firm.


I recently played a high end course with zoysia fairways and super firm fast, greens employing multiple tucked pins.
A really unpleasant combination that foiled nearly every creative recovery attempt except the high spinner.
Amazed anyone would go to the time,effort and extreme expense to get worse conditions than can be had for a fraction of the price.
And think the golf was somehow better.

[Tim Martin]

It took us about 400 years to realize that greens can be made too fast.
(Yet it remains the go to comment for any amateur review or consideration  in choosing or revering  a course)

I'm sure eventually we will find a way to make courses too firm.


I recently played a high end course with zoysia fairways and super firm fast, greens employing multiple tucked pins.
A really unpleasant combination that foiled nearly every creative recovery attempt except the high spinner.
Amazed anyone would go to the time,effort and extreme expense to get worse conditions than can be had for a fraction of the price.
And think the golf was somehow better.

In the running for post of the year. On the money!!!

[Ken Moum]

As often happens around here Jeff Warne nails it.


People can't get past thinking difficult  = good... they're wrong.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I can’t decide if the course was too firm or if it was me. I’d like to know what it is like 300 days a year. I did play up at 6000 yards. It wasn’t too long.

[Jim Hoak]

An under-analyzed fact is that as we get older, the trajectory of our golf shots gets flatter, in addition to obviously shorter.  And as we hit the ball flatter, we have more problems holding it on firm and fast greens. 
So, yes, I love it as my ball goes farther on firm and fast courses, but keeping my flatter shots on the greens, is more difficult.
There's probably no easy solution.  But, as has been said, building a firmer, faster course requires a consideration of all the related features--cross-bunkering in front of greens, hazards too close to greens, etc. 
On balance, I love courses firm and fast, but give us an overall design with room and features that work.

[John Kavanaugh]

A what yardage do the spoils of age become too far to overcome. Why can a young pro hit a 70 yd shot crisper than an old pro?


Don’t the real discrepancies not start until the 150 yd mark?

[Tim Gavrich]

I can’t decide if the course was too firm or if it was me. I’d like to know what it is like 300 days a year. I did play up at 6000 yards. It wasn’t too long.

Tommy--


I'd be interested to know what model of golf ball you play.


Late last year, I switched from the slightly longer Titleist Pro V1 to the firmer and slightly shorter but noticeably spinnier Titleist Pro V1x. It has made a significant difference to me on iron shots and wedges, including closer-in greenside shots. I've played better since I switched. The experience has suggested to me that the vast majority of golfers play a golf ball (or perhaps a combination of golf ball + irons and wedges) that does not spin nearly enough, and that that deficiency is really highlighted on very firm turf.


As average golf course conditions become firmer and faster - my sense is that this is happening, albeit very gradually and in fits and starts in different places - a golf ball that spins more on approaches and greenside shots will become more of an asset to the vast majority of golfers.


Distance has always been the feature that golf ball marketers have pushed, sometimes to the exclusion of everything else. But as more golfers realize they can solve their distance issues by simply moving up a tee box, I think spin becomes a more important factor in choosing the right golf ball for them.

[John Kavanaugh]

If you really believe that courses are becoming firmer and faster we must do everything to squash any complaining while the getting is good. I’ve played around 5,000 rounds in my life and no more than 5 have been on a course “out of control” and I remember each one of them. I doubt if I have played 500 rounds in perfect conditions. That leaves a bunch of mudding.

[Niall C]

Tommy,
Maybe the older members move up a set or two of tees?  Just a thought.
Mark

Here's another thought. Why doesn't the club employ a competent golf course architect to redesign the course for firm and fast conditions if that is how the course is going to be set up going forward ?


Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tommy,
Maybe the older members move up a set or two of tees?  Just a thought.
Mark

Here's another thought. Why doesn't the club employ a competent golf course architect to redesign the course for firm and fast conditions if that is how the course is going to be set up going forward ?


Niall

Correct.


People arguing out of both sides of their mouths. Firm and fast is great when a course accepts approach shots by bouncing on to greens.


No ball is going to help someone with a 70mph 7-iron with 60 foot peak height stop within 20 yards down wind on a firm and fast links course.


You cannot have firm and fast conditions for courses with significant fronting hazards or steeply elevated greens unless you want to rule out senior golfers from enjoying themselves.

[Tom_Doak]

You cannot have firm and fast conditions for courses with significant fronting hazards or steeply elevated greens unless you want to rule out senior golfers from enjoying themselves.

Seniors, juniors, women.  All low trajectory players.


Unfortunately most golf courses are designed by very good players who can't relate to them.

[Thomas Dai]

You cannot have firm and fast conditions for courses with significant fronting hazards or steeply elevated greens unless you want to rule out senior golfers from enjoying themselves.

Seniors, juniors, women.  All low trajectory players.
Unfortunately most golf courses are designed by very good players who can't relate to them.

And the love of the colour green and lusher grass and thus the desire for irrigation has spread to approaches and fairway areas on holes which previously could be played at a lower trajectory.
atb

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