[archie_struthers]

 




Just got back to the computer and we already discussed how most architectural designs have greens that are raised in the back. But for really hitting it close and making lots of shots from the fairway or tee you have to be aware of the slope of the green, and play accordingly

[Sean_A]

would totally disagree with Eric as much as I love his analytics as a rule...in observing thousand of rounds of golf in person and in my own game playing into the higher side results in excellent results as to proximity to the hole

Millions of shots > your anecdata, Archie.


The math, too, beats your anecdata. Plus, greens are generally front-to-back, not R to L or L to R.

I wish more greens were front to back. Far and away most greens are back to front.

Ciao

[Erik J. Barzeski]

But for really hitting it close and making lots of shots from the fairway or tee you have to be aware of the slope of the green, and play accordingly

Perhaps. I'm talking, as usual when talking about strategies, about the optimal way to play. That doesn't include eliminating maybe half the green by trying to play "above" the hole.

[Tim Martin]

would totally disagree with Eric as much as I love his analytics as a rule...in observing thousand of rounds of golf in person and in my own game playing into the higher side results in excellent results as to proximity to the hole

Millions of shots > your anecdata, Archie.


The math, too, beats your anecdata. Plus, greens are generally front-to-back, not R to L or L to R.

I wish more greens were front to back. Far and away most greens are back to front.

Ciao

In my experience maybe one in ten is tilted front to back.

[archie_struthers]

 


 Eric Perhaps you are missing the link between the mind accepting the "look" of the shot before attempting to play it. Also remember that one's aim should be linked to their shot shape.


Let's look at 16 at Augusta for a minute , scene of some famous holes in one and many near misses. What is it about that hole that allows so many of these? It's the right backstop which the best players can play into, and it's not necessarily by aiming it at the right bunker . A gentle fade hit at the center of that green most likely returns the most optimal result , and the many holes in one and near misses. You wouldn't hit a hard hook at this green with that back left as it surely would roll out too far.


Another case in point Pine Valley #3 ..which has some wonderful stategic pin locations. Just a super fun hole to play and always fun to execute the right plan on. ..When firm and the pin in the front left  you absolutely can use the slope as your friend > many times a shot hit right at it or even just a little right ends in the left bunker.  So you hit it at the right front , and your brain accepts this as the right play , thereby removing doubt . 


When the pin is back left or left center you must hit it deep into the green ,which is quire long and accepts a variety of shots properly planned . The reason is that any shot leaving you anywhere short , even dead center , requires a lag putt over the big ridge line that cuts thru the back of the green. Byron Nelson actually said to me that he would hit it in the back bunker than have to putt it over that very ridge. I was semi-shocked but he was sure that would have been the better option for him.


So, back to the original query of this post , how to make the most holes in one ? Take dead aim at a spot where the ball will react by funneling towards the hole when it lands! 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Eric Perhaps you are missing the link between the mind accepting the "look" of the shot before attempting to play it. Also remember that one's aim should be linked to their shot shape.

You say things like "should" but… seem to be relying on your anecdata and some old sayings or beliefs about golf.

Almost all the time, no, a player's aim should not be influenced by their shot shape. If there's OB right of a fairway, and the player's Shot Zone size says their shot should be aimed to finish at the left edge of the fairway, it doesn't matter if they fade it or draw it to get there unless there's a tree by the tee or something that makes that shape unusable.

Is it "better" to fade a ball into a fairway or a green that slopes right to left? Sure. Perhaps. But that doesn't really change the optimal aiming point for a shot very much. A drawer and a fader are still trying to get the ball to roughly the same place. That aim never changes so much as to eliminate half the green or something by aiming "above the hole."

What is it about that hole that allows so many of these?

Balls hit to a variety of places all tend to end up near the same place. That's about it. The Sunday hole location is a "funnel pin."

So, back to the original query of this post, how to make the most holes in one ? Take dead aim at a spot where the ball will react by funneling towards the hole when it lands!

As I said before, my goal is not to "make the most holes in one." It's to play good golf. Your strategy might lead to more 1s and 2s, but it's also going to lead to substantially more 4s, 5s, and more.

[Keith Williams]

To be honest, the entire concept of aiming to the center vs the pin on a par 3 has to be more about visualization and the mentality of approaching the shot than the actual physical execution.


For example, if the total target (green or green surrounds) is 30 yards wide on a 150 yard par three, then there is only an 11.4 degree angle variance between the extreme right and left edge.  For the purpose of aiming and/or stance, this equates to the leading toe setting up open 3" vs square vs closed 3".


Long story short, especially for the average golfer, aiming one's body and clubface in that precise a manner is a challenge in its own right.


Keith

[Rob Marshall]

Eric Perhaps you are missing the link between the mind accepting the "look" of the shot before attempting to play it. Also remember that one's aim should be linked to their shot shape.

You say things like "should" but… seem to be relying on your anecdata and some old sayings or beliefs about golf.

Almost all the time, no, a player's aim should not be influenced by their shot shape. If there's OB right of a fairway, and the player's Shot Zone size says their shot should be aimed to finish at the left edge of the fairway, it doesn't matter if they fade it or draw it to get there unless there's a tree by the tee or something that makes that shape unusable.

Is it "better" to fade a ball into a fairway or a green that slopes right to left? Sure. Perhaps. But that doesn't really change the optimal aiming point for a shot very much. A drawer and a fader are still trying to get the ball to roughly the same place. That aim never changes so much as to eliminate half the green or something by aiming "above the hole."

What is it about that hole that allows so many of these?

Balls hit to a variety of places all tend to end up near the same place. That's about it. The Sunday hole location is a "funnel pin."

So, back to the original query of this post, how to make the most holes in one ? Take dead aim at a spot where the ball will react by funneling towards the hole when it lands!

As I said before, my goal is not to "make the most holes in one." It's to play good golf. Your strategy might lead to more 1s and 2s, but it's also going to lead to substantially more 4s, 5s, and more.

My aim point is always dependent on my shot shape. It may not be the only factor in where I aim but it is one on every full swing shot.

[Tommy Williamsen]

It is very seldom I don't aim at the hole. I have made five. One was completely lucky, although they all are to some degree. The pin was not in the hole on 17 at Raleigh CC. I aimed at the middle of the green, pulled it, and found it in the hole.

[archie_struthers]

 


Of course it’s fun to be argumentative at times , it’s often a lively debate produces results. Remember this is all positive and fun !


Now Eric the start of Tommy’s post here was bemoaning the making of holes in one not playing better or shooting the best score .   


I’m at best a marginally decent amateur player yet have made an inordinate number of hole in ones and eagles from fairway. Why other than good luck could that be ?   I’ve also seen more rounds of golf than most mortals and again , how can Tommy make more holes in one. Play the carom. See the way the shot will run out !


Often tried to figure out why ?  It’s because I used to play a lot of golf and definitely tried to take the architectural intent and slopes into my equation . Being a better caddy than player understand the difference , or think so between stroke play and making birdies and skins. For us the skins typically pay more ..:  lots of guys can’t grind out a score but they can make birdies.  There’s a marked difference

[Tim Martin]

It’s clear from Tommy’s original post that the thread was about making holes in one as has been pointed out repeatedly by a variety of members. Erik can’t help but revert to the “Lowest Score Wins” dogma that permeates nearly every one of his posts whether a thread calls for that specific commentary or not. He can’t accept that there is way more to the game for many players than the tally on their scorecard.

[Joe Zucker]

It's probably also worth pointing out that it can be hard to aim at the middle of the green (when the pin is elsewhere).  Our eyes are drawn to the pin.  They even put a flag on it most places!  Aiming 40 feet right of it is almost a bit unnatural.  Austin Greaser (runner up at the US Am) talked about how it's a skill to learn to aim at something other than the flag.  I fully agree that different people play the game for different reasons, so no comment on that.  But if you want to aim at the middle of the green, it may not be as easy as you think.


https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/transform-your-range-sessions-with-this-simple-tip/

[Pat Burke]

My answer would take a while, but generally (when I was a decent player)
1) yardage and hole location
2) how am I hitting it at that time
3) wind
4) firmness of green


Not 100% of time but if playing Decently or better


Short irons pretty much aggressive at targets




I’d irons largely a target zone that was pie shaped from hole to what I believed was a “safe zone”. (Often a center target pie shaped towards hole)


Long irons or very tough conditions, I would often play for a green section (often times quadrants)


My strengths back then were being able to control the ball and distance I hit it, and being pretty solid at two-putting from about anywhere reasonable, so I was a bit conservative.  Probably too conservative in hindsight


Fwiw

[archie_struthers]

 


Hey Pat , thanks for chiming in !  When you were quite young some of my buddies from Adios raved about how well you played. They were right 


Like the theory about quadrants a lot. Easier to see in the mind than the lines we always here Jordan Spieth talking about. Obviously distance control plays a huge role in hitting it really close. You young guys don't remember Johnny Miller like some of us do but he
had an uncanny knack to hit it exactly the right distance when he got it going. Do think it's a lot about visualization.


Some of our architects might chime in on how they try to confuse us ....it's a real skill that few possess. One of my favorites at it was that old Philadelphia School guy William Flynn.  Always been a fan of his use of triangles , maybe he was visited by some ancient astronauts.

[Rob Marshall]

It’s clear from Tommy’s original post that the thread was about making holes in one as has been pointed out repeatedly by a variety of members. Erik can’t help but revert to the “Lowest Score Wins” dogma that permeates nearly every one of his posts whether a thread calls for that specific commentary or not. He can’t accept that there is way more to the game for many players than the tally on their scorecard.

Tim, Please don't troll. 

[Rob Marshall]

My answer would take a while, but generally (when I was a decent player)
1) yardage and hole location
2) how am I hitting it at that time
3) wind
4) firmness of green


Not 100% of time but if playing Decently or better


Short irons pretty much aggressive at targets




I’d irons largely a target zone that was pie shaped from hole to what I believed was a “safe zone”. (Often a center target pie shaped towards hole)


Long irons or very tough conditions, I would often play for a green section (often times quadrants)


My strengths back then were being able to control the ball and distance I hit it, and being pretty solid at two-putting from about anywhere reasonable, so I was a bit conservative.  Probably too conservative in hindsight


Fwiw

Good stuff Pat. I would love to hear more of these types things from the real players on this board.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Flynn’s fooling technique, it seems to me, is accomplished by elevating greens, thereby making it very difficult to decide whether the pin is front, middle or back. Certainly true at Rolling Green on 6, 10 and 14. There are par fours where I can be 50 yards from the green and not be able to tell.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

It’s clear from Tommy’s original post that the thread was about making holes in one as has been pointed out repeatedly by a variety of members. Erik can’t help but revert to the “Lowest Score Wins” dogma that permeates nearly every one of his posts whether a thread calls for that specific commentary or not. He can’t accept that there is way more to the game for many players than the tally on their scorecard.

And yet the topic is titled "Where do you aim on par threes?" and I'm answering that question.

It's probably also worth pointing out that it can be hard to aim at the middle of the green (when the pin is elsewhere).  Our eyes are drawn to the pin.  They even put a flag on it most places!  Aiming 40 feet right of it is almost a bit unnatural.  Austin Greaser (runner up at the US Am) talked about how it's a skill to learn to aim at something other than the flag.  I fully agree that different people play the game for different reasons, so no comment on that.  But if you want to aim at the middle of the green, it may not be as easy as you think.


https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/transform-your-range-sessions-with-this-simple-tip/

Agree.

[Pat Burke]

Hey Pat , thanks for chiming in !  When you were quite young some of my buddies from Adios raved about how well you played. They were right 


Like the theory about quadrants a lot. Easier to see in the mind than the lines we always here Jordan Spieth talking about. Obviously distance control plays a huge role in hitting it really close. You young guys don't remember Johnny Miller like some of us do but he
had an uncanny knack to hit it exactly the right distance when he got it going. Do think it's a lot about visualization.


Some of our architects might chime in on how they try to confuse us ....it's a real skill that few possess. One of my favorites at it was that old Philadelphia School guy William Flynn.  Always been a fan of his use of triangles , maybe he was visited by some ancient astronauts.

Thanks!! Who were the Adios friends ? My older brother spent a lot more time in S Florida and played there quite a bit!!  Cool place back then!!!

[Pat Burke]

My answer would take a while, but generally (when I was a decent player)
1) yardage and hole location
2) how am I hitting it at that time
3) wind
4) firmness of green


Not 100% of time but if playing Decently or better


Short irons pretty much aggressive at targets




I’d irons largely a target zone that was pie shaped from hole to what I believed was a “safe zone”. (Often a center target pie shaped towards hole)


Long irons or very tough conditions, I would often play for a green section (often times quadrants)


My strengths back then were being able to control the ball and distance I hit it, and being pretty solid at two-putting from about anywhere reasonable, so I was a bit conservative.  Probably too conservative in hindsight


Fwiw

Good stuff Pat. I would love to hear more of these types things from the real players on this board.

Rob,
Any time.
As I’m getting older and teaching, I believe I recognize more of what I was good at back then than I understood back then!


I feel like the guys playing well each week really May have controlled their irons better back then, but the grooves and spin were big contributors to developing that.  Miller was really amazing at that at his best.  He was an “ok” putter and lapped fields by stuffing shots all the time.  Probably close to as good at that as he says he was!


It’s interesting working with young players now, the data and stats have led to a very different approach to setting game plans than when I played.


It was fun to hear Tom Doak when he spend time with Brooks and the design ideas that sprung from that!

[Steve Lang]

   Yep low score won back when too... its maybe how, but really how many for the scorecard crowd as mentioned.  But , the how is definitely the most interesting stuff and as a game with many counter-intuitive approaches, strategies, and moving parts not surprising that one doesn't have to aim at THE TARGET but needs to be able to hit targets along the way.


Brilliant game indeed!

[Mark McKeever]

Agreed with some of the previous posts.  Depending on the nature of the round, i usually shoot for the fat of the green and try to make a putt.  If Im just out messing around, I may take a more daring line.

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