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Tim Gallant

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Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2023, 01:52:49 PM »
We should also note that Tom and Martin are both extremely nice guys, which can't do their business any harm. Tom is, a bit like Bill Coore, one of those people about whom no-one who has met him has a bad word to say. I have a vivid memory of a post-golf, beer-fuelled putting contest during an EIGCA meeting at Portmarnock Links in Ireland some years ago -- we started placing the beers on the putting green to make the holes a little more challenging! Martin I have known since we were in the group that recreated the Askernish course in 2006; my role was very minor, but it remains one of my most cherished memories.


Adam, would you consider Askernish an original Ebert? I probably would based on what I know, and it is currently Number 1 on my courses to see in the UK list.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2023, 02:11:39 PM »
In some organisations/businesses being involved with the running of that organisation/business, like say being on committee's and the like even if on a voluntary basis, and also being involved in related outside contractor/consultant type work/advice where renumeration is in some way or another received would be considered as an actual or perceived conflict of interest and any individual so positioned would have to exempt themselves from any involvement. Just saying.
atb

David Kelly

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Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2023, 02:49:37 PM »

With M+E - I wonder how much of their work is like Design and Build procurement which hands more of the work over to the contractor or even in-house rather than the Architect.


I can see Tom D and his crew are picking the de la creme of projects which means he/they can devote more time to it rather than rely on others who are not familiar with their design approach/model.
You would think that building a new hole and changing the routing at Royal Liverpool prior to an Open Championship would warrant a hands-on approach. It is certainly a de la creme project.


Martin Ebert does most of the work for the R&A from what I have heard and I'm sure he would have been on site quite a lot based on the fees they would be paid. Other clubs can't afford the level of fees that top clubs do.
I'll be playing there in 3 weeks so I'll be able to see it for myself but if M.E. was on the site a lot during the construction of the new 17th and the reports are true that members generally don't like it and the club really does want to replace it so soon after he finished it then that's a problem. This is a 154 year old historic club, I would hope the R&A and Mackenzie and Ebert would be more discerning about how they go about altering it.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

David_Tepper

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Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2023, 03:00:46 PM »
From this article: https://golf.com/travel/architect-of-17th-hole-at-royal-liverpool/


"ďThere are no plans to modify the 17th,Ē a club representative told GOLF.com by phone."

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2023, 04:31:32 PM »

I can see Tom D and his crew are picking the de la creme of projects which means he/they can devote more time to it rather than rely on others who are not familiar with their design approach/model.
Assuming Tom D is Tom Doak, I would argue that his commitment to hands-on construction has played a big part in establishing his reputation. The quality of the resulting product has led to great new opportunities, but he has always devoted significant time to the places where he works. It's not as if that's something new.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2023, 06:11:39 PM »

I can see Tom D and his crew are picking the de la creme of projects which means he/they can devote more time to it rather than rely on others who are not familiar with their design approach/model.
Assuming Tom D is Tom Doak, I would argue that his commitment to hands-on construction has played a big part in establishing his reputation. The quality of the resulting product has led to great new opportunities, but he has always devoted significant time to the places where he works. It's not as if that's something new.


Iíll make a couple of additions:


1. The quality of the raw project / site is not directly connected to the ability to spend time on the project / site. So not quite sure why Ben makes that point. The quality of the finished product is connected. So I can agree there.


2. Particularly with links work, significant time should also be spent on the course and with the members before a design solution is put on the table (not just during construction). Itís very easy to make a couple of visits and come up with a plan, far more difficult to really understand the subtleties of the golf course and how it plays for all members.



Ben Stephens

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Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2023, 03:15:38 AM »

I can see Tom D and his crew are picking the de la creme of projects which means he/they can devote more time to it rather than rely on others who are not familiar with their design approach/model.
Assuming Tom D is Tom Doak, I would argue that his commitment to hands-on construction has played a big part in establishing his reputation. The quality of the resulting product has led to great new opportunities, but he has always devoted significant time to the places where he works. It's not as if that's something new.


Iíll make a couple of additions:


1. The quality of the raw project / site is not directly connected to the ability to spend time on the project / site. So not quite sure why Ben makes that point. The quality of the finished product is connected. So I can agree there.


2. Particularly with links work, significant time should also be spent on the course and with the members before a design solution is put on the table (not just during construction). Itís very easy to make a couple of visits and come up with a plan, far more difficult to really understand the subtleties of the golf course and how it plays for all members.


Ally,


1. The point Im trying to make is if not on site often and part of the decision making process if there are issues that needed to be resolved asap - surely part of design control and influence is lost. Not every project is the same and how they are carried out are different - depending on what type of construction approach/contracts are taken by the client/club.


Certain golf course contractors have different interpretations of the proposed design some tend to do what they know rather than do something different that they don't normally do that is proposed by the architect. For example Holes 8 and 10 at Luffenham were done 'by Hawtree' however the construction was done by a well known UK golf course contractor in which the greens were nothing like the other greens and more like something that the contractor does regularly on other courses as well - greens surrounded by repetitive mounding  ??? [size=78%]. Not sure how often Hawtree was on site. [/size]


Tom D has trusted lieutenants on site like Angela and Clyde who keep him up to date on Project X and Cabot Highlands. Not sure what it is like with Tom Mackenzie and Martin Ebert or other Architects. I know Robin was on site quite regularly with JCB which was project managed and sub contracted out which gave it more of an unique look rather than a uniformed look if left to contractors.




2. Agree with this 100% its really important to get most of the design developed and agreed with client/members prior to commencing construction. Regarding the last point not only the golf course/site conditions but the weather conditions ie prevailing wind and location of sun at certain times of the day.   




John


It takes years to establish trust and reputation - Tom D has built this up since the early 1980s and has taken a number of people under his wing over time - some have flown the nest and established on their own and younger ones come through and gain trust from the 'master' it is like a conveyor belt. Tom's influence will continue over the next few decades through his lieutenants.


 


 

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2023, 03:54:01 AM »
Ben,


1. Exactly, agree. It was probably just the way you worded your last post.


2. Also agree. I wasnít talking about gaining alignment with the club / members. I was talking about spending enough time with the course and members to inform the architectís bespoke design solution that actually enhances the course in the optimal way.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2023, 04:01:26 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2023, 04:14:47 AM »
Ben,


1. Exactly, agree. It was probably just the way you worded your last post.


2. Also agree. I wasnít talking about gaining alignment with the club / members. I was talking about spending enough time with the course and members to inform the architectís bespoke design solution that actually enhances the course in the optimal way.


Its all about communication and translating your ideas to others.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2023, 05:24:41 AM »
Ben, youíre not understanding me. Itís about spending enough time to get the right ideas in the first place.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2023, 06:12:34 AM »
Ben, youíre not understanding me. Itís about spending enough time to get the right ideas in the first place.


Yes its putting that little extra effort to get the design right earlier - it may evolve slightly further down the road not too dramatically. Then it is important to explain the the design to sell the idea to the members with the information that has been developed.

David Davis

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Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2023, 02:43:33 PM »


Anyone played Goodwood up near Toronto? I was there for the first time about 3 weeks ago. I thought it was excellent. It may be the only sole design from M&E I have played.


I disagree with most of the negative comments having worked with Martin and originally met him through being on our greens committee at my home club which he will hopefully completely renovate soon as we have finally approved it after all these years.


I would say the following out of experience, they are incredibly detailed, especially in the RFP stage, the depth of their research is many times more than I've seen from anyone else. They will often put together 100+ page proposals for the more comprehensive restorations and it's this level of care, research and expertise which has allowed them to build their reno/resto business up to the great heights it has reached in GB&I. I've been on site on more than one occasion to experience the level of detail they go through to follow through as well.


I would also easily say that they are responsible for the two of the best renovations of all time in Turnberry and Hirono, both have a solid place in my personal World Top 20. Royal Portrush is another one that immediately comes to mind as the work there is excellent, another World Top 20 course.


If I was the benevolent dictator of a great classic links in need of restoration in the UK they would 100% be at the top of my list.


In terms of new build, like most architects I'm sure they would love to have a lot more opportunities.


I hope they do get the chance to do the Fairmont project.



« Last Edit: July 28, 2023, 02:48:03 PM by David Davis »
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John Mayhugh

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Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2023, 08:36:55 AM »

I would say the following out of experience, they are incredibly detailed, especially in the RFP stage, the depth of their research is many times more than I've seen from anyone else.

I'm not sure who you are including as "anyone else," but I have serious doubts that M&E are more thorough at research than C&C, Hanse, Doak, or CDP.


Extreme detail at the RFP stage is marketing, not necessarily design.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2023, 10:23:38 AM »
Excuse my ignorance but what does RFP stand for ?


Niall

David_Tepper

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Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2023, 10:34:03 AM »
Request For Proposal

Stewart Abramson

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Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2023, 10:40:33 AM »
Excuse my ignorance but what does RFP stand for ?


Niall


Request for Proposal = RFP.  An RFP is typically issued by a business customer to let potential vendors/contractors know the parameters/scope of the  goods, services and/or projects it is  interested in purchasing,  and requesting the prospective vendors/contractors to submit their proposals describing the terms and conditions (including pricing. timing etc),  upon which they are willing to deliver those good, services and/or projects. 


Edit - Just saw that David T had already responded while I was posting the above
« Last Edit: July 31, 2023, 10:42:05 AM by Stewart Abramson »

Niall C

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Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2023, 10:42:30 AM »
Thanks David, presumably an American term for inviting tenders.


Would a firm of GCA's undertake detailed research of a courses history at the tender stage ? Surely that is something they would do as part of the job, having secured the commission, or am I wrong ?


Niall

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2023, 10:56:19 AM »
Would a firm of GCA's undertake detailed research of a courses history at the tender stage ? Surely that is something they would do as part of the job, having secured the commission, or am I wrong ?


It would certainly seem to be the way it should work, but a number of architects here over the years have described how much free labor developers would sometimes require in order to be considered for the job. I'm not sure if that's really still the case or not.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2023, 11:04:45 AM »
Thanks David, presumably an American term for inviting tenders.

Would a firm of GCA's undertake detailed research of a courses history at the tender stage ? Surely that is something they would do as part of the job, having secured the commission, or am I wrong ?

Niall

It depends how badly they want the job. When times are tough, typically you end up with a lot more work being done for free, up front, simply to secure the project.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

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Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

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Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2023, 02:46:19 PM »
Adam


I appreciate there's a balance but I'd have thought there would generally be enough known about the course to give an overview of what is required rather than going into detail ie. if they know it's a MacKenzie they can talk about his design quirks without going through the whole history of what he did at that particular course. After all if you tell them everything at the tender stage then why would they need to hire the GCA when they could just take the ideas presented and apply them themselves.


Niall   

Ben Stephens

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Re: Mackenzie & Ebert's best routings and courses?
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2023, 03:36:52 PM »
Thanks David, presumably an American term for inviting tenders.

Would a firm of GCA's undertake detailed research of a courses history at the tender stage ? Surely that is something they would do as part of the job, having secured the commission, or am I wrong ?

Niall

It depends how badly they want the job. When times are tough, typically you end up with a lot more work being done for free, up front, simply to secure the project.


Adam,




I doubt that is still the case these days even in tough times.


It is unprofessional




Cheers
Ben

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