[Kyle Harris]

When you’re out hunting there’s no shot clock.

I like this old-fashioned definition of sport and how golf fits into it. Hunting is a reasonable analogue in many senses. But I think even hunting would add a shot clock or other time limit if it were being done as a competition. I'm not sure what my opinion is, but I wonder if a shot clock, only in competition golf, might work?

Shot clock? No.


But “You have 4 hours to bag the quarry.” Yes.

[Tom_Doak]

Shot clock? No.

But “You have 4 hours to bag the quarry.” Yes.

Well, to go back to Patrick Cantlay's argument, what good does it do to penalize everyone two strokes on Sunday?  If they'd penalized Kopeka and Rahm for playing slow behind Cantlay, maybe there would be some violence on course, but I don't think that's what The Masters wants to be showing on TV.

[Adam Lawrence]

Shot clock? No.

But “You have 4 hours to bag the quarry.” Yes.

Well, to go back to Patrick Cantlay's argument, what good does it do to penalize everyone two strokes on Sunday?  If they'd penalized Kopeka and Rahm for playing slow behind Cantlay, maybe there would be some violence on course, but I don't think that's what The Masters wants to be showing on TV.

The first rule is that you don't talk about golf club?

[Jim_Coleman]

   In Pennsylvanian, and I suspect most places, players are given a schedule regarding speed of play in state and local tournaments. The allotted time to play a round is usually around 4:15, depending on the course. I am sure the allotted time is objectively determined , and I have no doubt many here know more than I about how this is all calculated.
   There are checkpoints along the way. If a group is behind, a warning is issued. 2 violations results in consequences. All a group has to do is not be slow. If the group ahead is slow, the group behind is not warned so long as it keeps up with the group in front. It’s all very objective, and it works. The tours obviously know how this works, but choose not to use it. Why? 🤷‍♂️

[Kyle Harris]

Shot clock? No.

But “You have 4 hours to bag the quarry.” Yes.

Well, to go back to Patrick Cantlay's argument, what good does it do to penalize everyone two strokes on Sunday?  If they'd penalized Kopeka and Rahm for playing slow behind Cantlay, maybe there would be some violence on course, but I don't think that's what The Masters wants to be showing on TV.

That's a fair point, but I think it goes away if it's set out from the beginning. The first group to get penalized then just resets the clock for everyone behind. As long as groups maintain the spacing there's no problem. When I was a marshall/course advisor/RANGER this is how I would do it; it's hard to argue with "You teed off 10 minutes behind the group in front of you and now they're 15 minutes in front of you, please make up the 5 minutes in the next two holes."

Pace of play is already somewhat implied by the spacing of the tee times anyway - you're compelled to be at the tee at a certain time and compelled to be clear of that tee shot within the space between the group behind.


I'm just extending the spacing into the rules and checking on it every so often. In the world of data and analytics it's not much of a stretch to setup an appropriate spacing for groups of holes and it's likely okay to say that 1-6 at ANGC would take a different amount of time than 12-18, or simply add/move the data checkpoints based on data-backed flow.

The slow group then has a chance to close the gap or know they'll get the penalty on the checkpoint tee.

[Kalen Braley]

I think Kyle is spot on that golf is certainly unique compared to the other major sports...but I don't think that's the reason why they wont address this. I suspect it comes down to 2 issues:

1) Slow play has become institutionalized at top amateur and pro levels.  When you combine playing for high stakes (championships or money), coaches pounding methodical pre-shot routines into their heads for years prior, insisting on knowing every last detail for every shot and long pre-shot deliberations with caddy, tv talking heads and announcers praising and enforcing this behavior, and officiating committees showing little interest in implementing counter-measures with actual teeth, the current state of things isn't surprising.

2)  If organizing bodies are unwilling to have officials actively monitor players on the course and rely on video replays or self-reporting or guys from home calling in, and players conspire which rules to follow, and even lie after the fact when asked...if they are unwilling to address issues like this, I don't see how in the hell they will get around to fixing slow play.

[Ian Mackenzie]

NBA has the shot clock.
NFL has the play clock.
MLB now has the pitch clock.


NHL is too bad-ass already to mess with this level of annoyance....NHL players are true athletes...;-)


All the PGAT, USGA, R&A need to do is have their version of a "shot clock" whereby players have 45-60 seconds to execute their shots. They get 2-3 "time-outs" per round when they are in a "spot of bother".


Otherwuse, it should be "see ball, hit ball" for everyone.


As this has been a topic that pops up about 1-2 times per year, I will offer the following OPINION:


- Slow play has nothing to do with tee time spacing, hole length, or other structural constraints.


- Slow play is caused by the pre-shot routine duration of the individual player. Period.


- Cumulatively, it can be the difference between a round of 3:30 and one of 5:00+


Happy to provide examples as my core group of golfers here in Chicago have debated this for hours and we quantified it to show why one of our pals plays in 4:17 and we all play in 3:30 and shoot same scores, play same tees, etc.

[Kyle Harris]

As an aside, it's no longer all that surprising to me about how golf has gotten into some of these debates when they're so willing to accept a fundamental shift in baseball simply to make it more enjoyable to some.

Baseball can now happen without a pitch being thrown. Apart from a situation that was blatantly unsporting and requiring Umpire intervention and a forfeiture, this could never occur prior to the pitch clock.


The idea that golf can happen without a stroke being played should be alarming.

[Niall C]

- Slow play has nothing to do with tee time spacing, hole length, or other structural constraints.


- Slow play is caused by the pre-shot routine duration of the individual player. Period.

Ian


Agree with just about all of that but would add not clearing the green quickly after finishing the hole. When I learned the game as a wee boy the only lesson I got from my parents was to keep my head down. Everything else they drummed into me was about etiquette, and when you analyse that what it is all about is safety and speed of play. These days etiquette seems to have gone out the window.


In the long term we need beginners to be given a lesson in etiquette as being the first thing they learn. In the short term the "game" needs to set an example by penalising the likes of Cantlay. After all, if the can penalise a young Chinese amateur then how difficult should it be to penalise someone who should know better ?


Niall

[Edward Glidewell]

As an aside, it's no longer all that surprising to me about how golf has gotten into some of these debates when they're so willing to accept a fundamental shift in baseball simply to make it more enjoyable to some.

Baseball can now happen without a pitch being thrown. Apart from a situation that was blatantly unsporting and requiring Umpire intervention and a forfeiture, this could never occur prior to the pitch clock.


The idea that golf can happen without a stroke being played should be alarming.

Is the pitch clock a fundamental shift, or is it simply the response to a fundamental shift? Players/managers created a problem that didn't previously exist, and they refused to fix the problem themselves, so a new rule was created.

Golf is actually quite similar, in that golf rounds tend to take much longer now than they did 50 years ago (and not because of any increase in actual game/sporting action), which was the exact same problem baseball faced.

That said, I'm not in favor of an individual shot clock for golf.

[Kyle Harris]

Edward,

Curious statement.

"Create the problem."

Is it a problem created by managers and players or is it some aspect of human nature and the game at hand? Managers and players won't do anything that doesn't give their team/performance an advantage. Adding this ruleto baseball, as most rules in games like baseball or the various version of football worldwide, simply limits this aspect of human performance.

It's no difference than having a field defined by out of bounds - which is a restriction on human speed. Without it, the first team to gain an advantge would give the ball/object to a marathon runner and play keep away for the remaining time.


A shot clock presents a much murkier problem toward golf because it's safe to say that most every shot/context is different enough to suggest that the combination of variables create more unique situations than not. At what point does the human performance/reaction/processing element need to be regulated and tested? It's a rare case where fairness may actually need to enter the conversation, to wit: If the greatest ball striker of all time needs an extra minute per shot to be that, who are we to say that their talents shouldn't still be rewarded?

[Tim Martin]

Something has to be done but any sort of shot clock would have to come with some carve outs. When there are ruling issues/disagreements then the clock will have to get paused. I guess this is situational and you have to consider that a rules official is only called when the players can’t figure it out themselves. I agree with Kyle that there are more variables in golf than almost any other sport.

[Jim_Coleman]

   I don’t understand. Why can’t the tours do what I’m pretty sure almost every state and local golf association does?

[ward peyronnin]

Consider that at Augusta and almost every Tour venue are courses these players have played multiple times and shouldn't have a need for constant recalibration

Consider that part ot the beauty of walking is that it allows an organic ongoing assessment of the players sitiuation that should only require a spot check and not an interminable post walk conversation ala Spiet and many others
All this preshot fugase and green reading should be underway while other players are involved in their shot
Consider the woeful ignorance of the rules of what is your livelihood a lot of players feign when they should be getting on with whatever option they choose rather than waiting for a ruling  so many many times

and all the other "ready golf" practices available and their is no excuse for their slow play.
Therefore if speed of play is essential then enforce time limits and force the players to adopt his strategies to satisfy those limits: it is the simplist and least flawed method. As someone said we tag qualifiers and other local tournamnet players with shots all the time.

[Buck Wolter]

NBA has the shot clock.
NFL has the play clock.
MLB now has the pitch clock.


NHL is too bad-ass already to mess with this level of annoyance....NHL players are true athletes...;-)


All the PGAT, USGA, R&A need to do is have their version of a "shot clock" whereby players have 45-60 seconds to execute their shots. They get 2-3 "time-outs" per round when they are in a "spot of bother".


Otherwuse, it should be "see ball, hit ball" for everyone.


As this has been a topic that pops up about 1-2 times per year, I will offer the following OPINION:


- Slow play has nothing to do with tee time spacing, hole length, or other structural constraints.


- Slow play is caused by the pre-shot routine duration of the individual player. Period.


- Cumulatively, it can be the difference between a round of 3:30 and one of 5:00+


Happy to provide examples as my core group of golfers here in Chicago have debated this for hours and we quantified it to show why one of our pals plays in 4:17 and we all play in 3:30 and shoot same scores, play same tees, etc.

The NHL sped up the game in the early 2000's with Hurry-up face offs and line changes IIRC -- again to improve the fan experience and make games shorter with more action. They were a forerunner.


My guess is the lack of pre-shot routine causes more delay than a deliberate one.

[Joe Zucker]

I've offered this solution elsewhere, but I think the answer is a chess clock.  This is not a solution for everyday slow play, but it would work on the PGA tour where you can have a scorer with every group. 


Allow every player a predefined amount of time (an hour?) to hit all of their shots in a round.  The clock starts when you get to your ball or the previous player has hit.  When a really tricky shot comes up, take all the time you want, but you'll have to make up the time elsewhere (I think this is simpler than allowing for timeouts).  For every minute over your alotted time, add a stroke to your score.


I guess there could be pauses to the clock for rulings and the clock shouldn't be running if you're waiting for the group in front of you to clear, but otherwise I see it as relatively simple to implement. 

[Matt Schoolfield]

Hello, this is my first post in the forums, but I wrote a data heavy article on this subject based on the research by Lucius Riccio, and I really think that slow play is misunderstood by most golf enthusiasts:

https://golfcoursewiki.substack.com/p/the-four-hour-round-is-bullshit
The thesis is that course carry capacity has a much more dramatic effect on slow play than perceived slow play. I really think the reduction in tee time intervals to 9 & 1/2 minutes had a dramatic effect on pace of play here, as the standard tee time intervals (which I believe were 10 minutes) has already created delays in the past.

Any reduction in tee time interval from carry capacity should stack the delta in intervals all on the last group, and it will likely stack non-linearly. Thus, we can assume that these shortened tee time intervals are the primary culprit, especially when Cantlay was waiting on the 18th fairway, meaning the second-to-last group was operating at pace through the entirety of the round.
Pace-of-play math is hard. I hope the research in this article is illustrative of the concept to the group here.
-Matt

[Michael Dugger]

It's interesting the direction most have chosen to take the OP here.


My first reaction was Brooks is being an ass again and the real issue is he needs to learn how to slow down and adapt to the situation or he's going to struggle winning.


Consider...


A very hilly course making walking uphill slower
a damp course leading to more assessment of your lie
pros can reach par 5s in two, "average Joe" cannot
wind playing tricks on you


Slow play works like traffic.  It trickles down to everyone.  I don't think Cantlay is the villain here, why should he rush himself just to wait longer all over again?

[Niall C]

Michael


Consider...


- Cantlay was playing the same hilly damp course as everyone else.


- Cantlay was slower than his playing partner who decided not to wait for him, and was so slow that he held up those playing behind.


Niall

[David Kelly]

The NHL sped up the game in the early 2000's with Hurry-up face offs and line changes IIRC -- again to improve the fan experience and make games shorter with more action. They were a forerunner.


My guess is the lack of pre-shot routine causes more delay than a deliberate one.

The "hurry-up" face offs were instituted for the 2002-03 season but gradually went away because the refs stopped enforcing it.  A bigger change in the NHL to speed up the games was in the mid-90s when they stopped allowing the puck to be frozen against the boards.  Teams have 1000-1500 less face offs a season now than they did prior to the late-90s.


MLB has also almost always had a pitch clock in the rules but never really enforced it although they had paid lip service to it occasionally before this season.  Here is a good article on the history of the pitch clock in baseball.
https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2023/3/29/23661015/the-forgotten-history-of-the-pitch-clock-in-baseball


The bottom line is if the PGA and the people who run the majors were committed to speeding up play they could accomplish it.  The will just isn't there...yet.

[Craig Sweet]

Stop the pre-shot routine!  Peg it and hit it!!!   And on the greens?  Stop all the nervous mickey mousing around the ball. 

[Dan_Callahan]

Have you seen the video going around on Instagram of Cantlay standing over his ball with driver, and it takes him 42 seconds to finally pull the trigger? You'd assume it's some video trickery that somebody looped, but you can tell by the people walking in the background that it is, in fact, not looped. It is very real and very awful. I couldn't imagine playing in a group with him and watching that throughout a round.

[Jim Sherma]

Slow play is caused by slow players. Top level players may be slow due to pre-shot routines but on most courses is because of a multitude of issues.


One of my pet peeves is bee hive behavior where the group goes from ball to ball and watches each other hit their shots making no effort to be at their ball ready to hit when it's their turn. Someone's ball could be 10-20 yards from the cart and they will sit in the cart while their playing partner hits and then after the club is put away they drive the ten yards and go through the whole routine. Drives me crazy.


Club culture is the most important aspect of pace of play. The PGA Tour certainly doesn't have a good one.

[Charlie Goerges]

Hello, this is my first post in the forums, but I wrote a data heavy article on this subject based on the research by Lucius Riccio, and I really think that slow play is misunderstood by most golf enthusiasts:

https://golfcoursewiki.substack.com/p/the-four-hour-round-is-bullshit
The thesis is that course carry capacity has a much more dramatic effect on slow play than perceived slow play. I really think the reduction in tee time intervals to 9 & 1/2 minutes had a dramatic effect on pace of play here, as the standard tee time intervals (which I believe were 10 minutes) has already created delays in the past.

Any reduction in tee time interval from carry capacity should stack the delta in intervals all on the last group, and it will likely stack non-linearly. Thus, we can assume that these shortened tee time intervals are the primary culprit, especially when Cantlay was waiting on the 18th fairway, meaning the second-to-last group was operating at pace through the entirety of the round.
Pace-of-play math is hard. I hope the research in this article is illustrative of the concept to the group here.
-Matt

Thanks for posting, I think it gives a lot to think about. Just like traffic, it can feel nice to ascribe slowness to the individual failings of others, but I suspect it's more complicated than that. Some of what John VDB had to say also hinted at this same phenomenon. I suggest everyone read at least the first four sections.

[Niall C]

Hello, this is my first post in the forums, but I wrote a data heavy article on this subject based on the research by Lucius Riccio, and I really think that slow play is misunderstood by most golf enthusiasts:

https://golfcoursewiki.substack.com/p/the-four-hour-round-is-bullshit
The thesis is that course carry capacity has a much more dramatic effect on slow play than perceived slow play. I really think the reduction in tee time intervals to 9 & 1/2 minutes had a dramatic effect on pace of play here, as the standard tee time intervals (which I believe were 10 minutes) has already created delays in the past.

Any reduction in tee time interval from carry capacity should stack the delta in intervals all on the last group, and it will likely stack non-linearly. Thus, we can assume that these shortened tee time intervals are the primary culprit, especially when Cantlay was waiting on the 18th fairway, meaning the second-to-last group was operating at pace through the entirety of the round.
Pace-of-play math is hard. I hope the research in this article is illustrative of the concept to the group here.
-Matt

Sorry Matt, that's just a litany of excuses to allow players to take their own sweet time. Yes, different courses will take different time to play depending on length of the course, walk between holes, difficulty of the course, how busy it is and the time between tee times but that doesn't mean each golfer isn't responsible for their own pace of play. Be ready, hit the ball without fannying about and move smartly after the ball, then repeat. Not rocket science.


Niall 

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