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Michael Morandi

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College Tournament Golf
« on: April 04, 2023, 09:09:36 PM »
I went to a big event recently but couldn’t watch more than 9 holes because the college players were on a 5 plus hour pace. When a fellow spectator asked a coach why the slow play, the coach said the guys were competing to keep their scholarships. This can’t be an acceptable explanation. What other NCAA sport permits its competitors to exceed any reasonable time standard?

Max Prokopy

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Re: College Tournament Golf
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2023, 10:20:04 PM »
That response is unlikely to be accurate.  Scholarships are mostly partial.  It's not like football where the whole team is on a full ride.  D-1 allows 4.5 scholarships and most teams carry 9+ players. 


The play is often slow due to being stroke play, frequent shotgun starts, threesomes, and having the two coaches walk with players which adds time. 

Ronald Montesano

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Re: College Tournament Golf
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2023, 10:35:32 PM »
This is hardly a golf course architecture posit, and should not be on GCA.
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David_Tepper

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Re: College Tournament Golf
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2023, 10:36:24 PM »
Michael -

I was out at Harding as well to watch some of the golf. While it is not an excuse, it should be noted the guys were playing in groups of 4. I don't know how much time was allotted between tee times.

As Max notes, allowing the coaches to interact with their players during the rounds certainly does nothing to speed up play. :)

Sadly slow play is endemic on just about all levels of tournament golf these days. Rounds of the 2021 US Women's Open at Olympic were taking over 5 hours as well and they were playing in threesomes.     

Unless and until there is a collective decision and resolve by "the powers that be" to address slow play, little or nothing will change.

Maybe major league baseball's decision to speed up play in their sport will encourage golf to do the same.

DT
 
« Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 10:49:57 PM by David_Tepper »

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: College Tournament Golf
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2023, 03:09:12 AM »
This is hardly a golf course architecture posit, and should not be on GCA.


Wow! The first off-topic post in GCS history. Kudos for finding it.
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Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: College Tournament Golf
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2023, 09:43:35 AM »
This is hardly a golf course architecture posit, and should not be on GCA.


Wow! The first off-topic post in GCS history. Kudos for finding it.
But it was in a big font -- that has to mean something
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: College Tournament Golf
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2023, 11:20:35 AM »
To steer the topic toward golf architecture a little, I was receiving texts this weekend from the sponsor of our work at Dornick Hills, which just hosted a huge college tournament over the past weekend.  The host team, North Texas, with local knowledge, somehow managed to beat many of the elite programs in the country over two windy days of play.


I asked the donor [who is also a big time donor to North Texas] whether they had recruited some great players or whether this was all about local knowledge, and he responded that it was some of both . . . in a strong wind two of the Tulsa players went over the green on the Cliff Hole and out of bounds, each posting a score of 9, which enabled the North Texas team to come from behind to win.

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: College Tournament Golf
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2023, 11:29:12 AM »
Slow play is a very common "OT" here and has much relevance.


It has been my experince over the last 15 years that tournament golf in 3-somes takes 5:15 to play, so not sure why this is such an eye-opener for the OP.


- USGA MidAm qualifiers
- Local Chicago CDGA tourneys
- Even when I played in the Jamaican Open in 2020...same effing thing.


Aim point, whatever...people just play deliberately in tournaments and, until there is a r=ule against it, it will continue.

Chris Cupit

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Re: College Tournament Golf
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2023, 07:53:45 PM »
Well, there is a Rule; it's just never enforced. 

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: College Tournament Golf
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2023, 08:06:01 PM »
Well, there is a Rule; it's just never enforced.
It's basically a recommendation - a guideline. It gives power to the Committee to enact a PoPP (Pace of Play Policy) but they rarely do.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/encouraging-prompt-pace-of-play.html

On the PGA Tour… groups are rarely out of position, too, so players don't get put on the clock all that often.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

JohnVDB

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Re: College Tournament Golf
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2023, 02:34:44 PM »
Erik,


Most Committees do have a Pace of Play policy.  As someone who has worked the NCAA Division 1 Regionals and Finals, I can assure you we had one and have penalized multiple players.  Also, when I worked for various Allied Golf Associations, we refused to work college events that wouldn’t allow us to institute a pace of play policy and to enforce it. The colleges went along with it most of the time. Those that didn’t found that other schools might not want to play in their events.


The problems are multiple though.


1) Too many teams / players and shotgun starts when trying to get 36 holes played in one day.  I’ve seen fields with 100 players which means 25 groups of 4 in a shotgun start.  There is no room for anyone to go anywhere.


2) Shotgun starts even when the number of teams is reasonable.  There is no real easy way to enforce a pace of play when every A group is technically out of position at their first hole.


3) Coaches.  At the NCAA finaks a few years ago, I was assigned to follow two groups. They were doing fine until one coach came over and started “helping” his player. The player went from a decent pace to a crawl which out the group on the clock.  After they finally finished, I was in getting lunch and telling another official about it. He laughed and said he had the same experience with the same player / coach the day before.


4) Players whose instructors tell them not to hit the ball until they are completely ready and taking that to mean they can take as much time as they want with their routines.


5) Players not learning the pace of play policy, particularly when it is the checkpoint system.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: College Tournament Golf
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2023, 09:36:03 PM »
Most Committees do have a Pace of Play policy.
And there's one on the PGA Tour. Unfortunately, they often start with being "out of position," and it's tough to be "out of position" when the group in front of you is slow. Most (USGA at least) PoPPs have a time par, but again… both conditions have to be met to be considered out of position.

I don't think many PoPPs include any way of penalizing one player in a group that's keeping up with the group in front of them. So, often, it seems like the one or two fast players in a group are helping the one or two slow players from being put on the clock. I think Brooks said once that he would sometimes play slowly so they'd be put on the clock and the slow players would have to speed up.

Are you aware of any PoPPs that enforce anything remotely like a shot clock or timed shots for a group that's in position?
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: College Tournament Golf
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2023, 10:25:45 PM »
To steer the topic toward golf architecture a little, I was receiving texts this weekend from the sponsor of our work at Dornick Hills, which just hosted a huge college tournament over the past weekend.  The host team, North Texas, with local knowledge, somehow managed to beat many of the elite programs in the country over two windy days of play.


I asked the donor [who is also a big time donor to North Texas] whether they had recruited some great players or whether this was all about local knowledge, and he responded that it was some of both . . . in a strong wind two of the Tulsa players went over the green on the Cliff Hole and out of bounds, each posting a score of 9, which enabled the North Texas team to come from behind to win.


A friend of mine is the coach at Western KY. I know they were thrilled to be invited.

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