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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
15 at Palmetto
« on: March 22, 2023, 11:09:51 PM »
The acid test.


It has become my favorite short par 4 in the world.
Many disagree.


I recently had a well travelled rater tell me "Palmetto would be a Top 50 course if not fpr the last four holes"
To me, the last four holes are an integral part of the Palmetto experience.
Putting aside the intimacy of it all, the return to the clubhouse after 15, the three hole loop, the holes are excellent and represent what so few courses built today-compelling and interesting golf without a large scale slog.



Back to 15, which I rambled on about in my rebuttal(didn't even get to the all world 16th or super confounding 17th.....


Again. back to 15.....Why more architects refused to use a green running away as a design feature is beyond me.
Paired with interesting shaping and firm turf, options, fear, local knowledge and skill display abound


Discuss



« Last Edit: March 23, 2023, 10:04:35 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2023, 09:44:50 AM »
The acid test.


It has become my favorite short par in the world.
Many disagree.


Discuss


Short par what ?


Niall

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2023, 10:04:59 AM »
The acid test.


It has become my favorite short par in the world.
Many disagree.


Discuss


Short par what ?


Niall


LOL-
Short memory
Par 4
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2023, 12:27:59 PM »
It's a mountain goat tee shot up the hill, but it's a thrill to get to the top and see where your ball ended up - if you can reach the top, or beyond. A super fun hole!


It's a little different to walk through the clubhouse/pro shop area and across the clubhouse entry drive/parking to get to 16-18, but overall, I find no fault with anything about Palmetto. I'd rather have that walk than to play subdivision cart golf where we cross streets multiple times per round.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2023, 01:02:26 PM »
It's a mountain goat tee shot up the hill, but it's a thrill to get to the top and see where your ball ended up - if you can reach the top, or beyond. A super fun hole!


It's a little different to walk through the clubhouse/pro shop area and across the clubhouse entry drive/parking to get to 16-18, but overall, I find no fault with anything about Palmetto. I'd rather have that walk than to play subdivision cart golf where we cross streets multiple times per round.


Every course needs a controversial hole. 15 is that hole; however, I never liked it. It is reminiscent of 18 at Reddish Vale, which I didn't like either. The uphill tee shot is too abrupt. That said, the course is just shy of outstanding.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2023, 02:05:30 PM »
Jeff - I don't like 15th for the same reasons I don't like the 18th. Both feel like compromises. I'd bet they would have built different holes if there had been more room in that pinched little corner of the course.


Bob   

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2023, 02:16:01 PM »
15-17 at Palmetto are the three holes I think about when Iím trying to stay awake and focus on something else.


Theyíre that engaging.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2023, 08:48:33 PM »
Jeff,


Iíve tried for years and failed to explain to people whatís so great about Palmetto. I think that when it comes down to business, Palmetto asks great questions without beating you over the head. In that way, also Aiken GC up the road, itís very much in keeping with the town itself. It just shouldnít be that that easy going authentic, but also that interesting and demanding.


As for 15 itself, itís pretty much the definition of easy going but demanding. In 30 plus rounds, Iíd guess my scoring delta is the widest of any hole at Palmetto. I made a two there once. And spent years trying to make another, racking up lots of 6ís along the way. The drive is more interesting than some people give credit, and the green slope demands attention. I donít know what else to say except that I almost agree with you. But there is one short four I like better.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2023, 09:45:47 PM »
15-17 at Palmetto are the three holes I think about when Iím trying to stay awake and focus on something else.


Theyíre that engaging.


Exactly.
I will concede 18 isn't overly compelling as I have found late in life that a 4 iron or 5 wood is the best tee shot for me.


I still like the hole  as the green  intimacy and setting are both all world.





« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 12:52:56 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2023, 02:32:26 AM »
15 is an awkward cuss of a hole. It uses the land well, but feels hemmed in. It's short on the card, yet hard to make a four. It isn't a pretty hole, but exhibits fine playing characteristics. The one aspect which isn't well balanced is the walk to 16. At the end of the day there are many short 4s that I prefer. I am usually going to prefer the holes which aid the walking flow of a design. I think it's that important to design quality if the course is meant to be walkable. That said, whether or not my preferences are better holes is debatable.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Clyne, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate & Ladybank

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2023, 12:12:18 PM »
Given I'm completely unfamiliar with the course, I thought I'd take a look on Google Earth to see if I could figure out the routing.

My initial thought was 16 thru 18 was 1-3, and that the course ended on 15.  Has there been any thought to changing it over, or would that be heresy to Palmetto's allegedly passionate base?  At least Jeff would be happy given its his favorite par 4 and all  ;) , and the "new" 1-3 would be a great way to finish match play events. Overall thou, the course looks terrific via the aerials.

P.S.  Given the way Sean talked about 15 I figured it would be a bit more uphill, but it "only" only looks to be about 35-40 feet via Earth measurements.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2023, 05:23:42 PM »
The 15th hole at Palmetto is the bermuda grass version of the 18th at Somerset Hills. Like 'em both.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2023, 09:11:34 PM »
15 is an awkward cuss of a hole. It uses the land well, but feels hemmed in. It's short on the card, yet hard to make a four. It isn't a pretty hole, but exhibits fine playing characteristics. The one aspect which isn't well balanced is the walk to 16. At the end of the day there are many short 4s that I prefer. I am usually going to prefer the holes which aid the walking flow of a design. I think it's that important to design quality if the course is meant to be walkable. That said, whether or not my preferences are better holes is debatable.

Ciao


It might be 100 yards to 16 tee from 15 green admittedly across 18 fairway. but giving you a sneak peak of an upcoming hole.
Then you cross in front of the clubhouse usually populated by groups previously finished taking it all in in rocking chairs on the porch.
Then, a choice is made.
-join them on the porch
-walk by and play on
--grab a beverage and play on


Intimate setting.


16-18 are often a great option if 1 tee is busy, playing the Kalen routing.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2023, 09:22:07 PM »
Trying to mitigate the impact of 15 I would probably be the sort that starts on 16 from the boot of the car and stops in the shop for a beverage after 18 to eventually finish on 15. Even so, 15 feels like an afterthought hole which sticks out like a sore thumb. I am not convinced it's quality justifies the awkward routing.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Clyne, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate & Ladybank

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2023, 01:58:09 PM »
Given that the original routing had 5 holes in the same area, I don't know what else could have been done after the par 3 9th was added. There is no suitable golfing ground to the left of 15 and relocating the clubhouse wouldn't have been a popular idea. I think were it not for the short 18th, the 15h would get a lot more praise. A hole that short requires some kind of confounding feature. I have a suspicion that the green for the original 17th was on the other side of the gully that crosses in front of it. If so, it's apparent that as much distance as possible was squeezed out of the last 4 holes.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2023, 03:38:02 PM »
Given that the original routing had 5 holes in the same area, I don't know what else could have been done after the par 3 9th was added. There is no suitable golfing ground to the left of 15 and relocating the clubhouse wouldn't have been a popular idea. I think were it not for the short 18th, the 15h would get a lot more praise. A hole that short requires some kind of confounding feature. I have a suspicion that the green for the original 17th was on the other side of the gully that crosses in front of it. If so, it's apparent that as much distance as possible was squeezed out of the last 4 holes.

Is 15 an original hole?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Clyne, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate & Ladybank

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2023, 09:17:49 PM »

Is 15 an original hole?

Ciao
No. In the original routing 5 holes started about where the current 15th tee is located and the looped around where the clubhouse is now located. The 14th hole (the current par 3 9th didn't exist) was a short par 3 that started near the current 15th tee and went up the hill towards the present clubhouse. 16 and 17 followed the current 17th fairway. The 18th green was located approximately in the same location as the current green but the line was probably over the back of the practice tee..

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2023, 10:05:46 AM »
Trying to mitigate the impact of 15 I would probably be the sort that starts on 16 from the boot of the car and stops in the shop for a beverage after 18 to eventually finish on 15. Even so, 15 feels like an afterthought hole which sticks out like a sore thumb. I am not convinced it's quality justifies the awkward routing.

Ciao


I guess this is why we can't have nice things.


When one of the most astute and learned fans of intimate proximity to clubhouse ,compact routings, quirk,charm, and strategy describes #15 and its place in the routing in such a way  it's a no wonder that less traveled and less educated golfers fell for and in facr demanded increasingly formulaic courses that simply break very few accepted conventions.


Heavy heavy sign.
.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2023, 10:24:25 AM »

Is 15 an original hole?

Ciao
No. In the original routing 5 holes started about where the current 15th tee is located and the looped around where the clubhouse is now located. The 14th hole (the current par 3 9th didn't exist) was a short par 3 that started near the current 15th tee and went up the hill towards the present clubhouse. 16 and 17 followed the current 17th fairway. The 18th green was located approximately in the same location as the current green but the line was probably over the back of the practice tee..


Craig


Thanks. Interesting. Were 15-18 developed at the same time?


Jeff, can't have nice things?


Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Clyne, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate & Ladybank

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2023, 11:44:55 AM »
Jeff,

As mentioned before, when initially looking at the routing, I thought 11 was 15 and spent a few minutes looking at the hole from several angles on Google Earth.  It looks fairly interesting and curious where would you put it on your list of faves?  Are the trees on the left too much of a hinderance to the average joe 16 capper?  Or does it work well to force them to make a decision on the tee?

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2023, 12:42:28 PM »
I got the chance to play Palmetto a month ago (played it a couple years ago but had to skip 16-18 because of a flight) and I can't think of a place I'd rather play on a warm February day. 1,15,18 and putting green is as  intimate as it gets (A little scary for a guy coming off 4 months of winter).
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2023, 04:45:24 PM »
Iíll meet you halfway, Sean.


I can get on board with your suggestion of ordering the course 16-18 then 1-15, but only to remove an awkward green-to-tee walk from 15 to 16.


15 is a brilliant hole and IMO completely in keeping and at ease with the other 17 holes at Palmetto.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2023, 05:53:53 PM »
Iíll meet you halfway, Sean.

I can get on board with your suggestion of ordering the course 16-18 then 1-15, but only to remove an awkward green-to-tee walk from 15 to 16.

15 is a brilliant hole and IMO completely in keeping and at ease with the other 17 holes at Palmetto.

I am not suggesting changing the numbering, only that I like the idea of starting on 16.

15 is a good hole, never said it wasn't. I am not convinced it is a good reason for the awkward routing...if indeed it is the reason for the hitch.

Jeff is welcome to his opinion,but 15 is nowhere near my favourite short 4.

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 30, 2023, 05:56:41 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Clyne, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate & Ladybank

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2023, 11:40:40 AM »

Thanks. Interesting. Were 15-18 developed at the same time?

Jeff, can't have nice things?

Ciao
Sean,I missed a chance to find out last week. My guess is that the clubhouse - built in 1902 - disrupted 14-18 which forced adding the par 3 9th and the new 15-18. Just a guess.

I really like 15 and completely agree with Scott. One update that would help pace of play would be to put some kind of light signal - #6 at Rye, e.g. - to indicate that the leading group is on or has left the green. There aren't many golfers who can carry the ball onto the green so there isn't a safety issue. Once the fairway is clear, the group on the tee should feel free to play.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 15 at Palmetto
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2023, 10:05:26 PM »
I just finished playing Palmetto this week.  This stuff hurts my head.  It's a good golf course I could play everyday...committees overthinking this stuff and dudes out there who are glad to blow smoke up their butts are why we have so many abortions of some of our courses.  Play golf. Or if you really want to be cool today..then learn to think Zoyzia...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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