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Michael Chadwick

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2023, 11:06:33 PM »
Without any close calls, and with over 115 votes cast for each match, the Elite Eight has been set:


East
1. Pine Valley v 2. Merion


West
1. Cypress Point v 2. Augusta


South
1. Shinnecock v 2. Sand Hills


Midwest
1. NGLA v 3. Fishers Island


Sweet 16 Results:


East
1. Pine Valley 77.9% > 5. Crystal Downs 22.1%
3. Pinehurst #2 35.1% < 2. Merion 64.9%


West
1. Cypress Point 93.8% > 4. Friar's Head 6.2%
3. Pebble Beach 24.8% < 2. Augusta 75.2%


South
1. Shinnecock 84.8% > 5. Prairie Dunes 15.2%
3. LACC 39.8% < 2. Sand Hills 60.2%


Midwest
1. NGLA 86% > 4. Chicago Golf 14%
3. Fishers Island 58.4% > 2. Oakmont UPSET 


The Elite Eight voting form is LIVE from now until this Sunday 3/26 at 8 pm PT: https://forms.gle/7W1Rm8v1keADYEn76

Interesting storylines for the Elite Eight. Two MacKenzies square off, and a Macdonald or Raynor will see their run come to an end. A classic greater Philly rivalry comes to a head, and the spread for the treeless wonders of Shinnecock and Sand Hills is set at PK.

Instagram: mj_c_golf

Michael Chadwick

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2023, 11:47:57 PM »
I'm extending Elite Eight voting until Tuesday 8 pm PT since it's only been live over the weekend and we're at 30% of votes cast compared to the Sweet 16 round.


https://forms.gle/7W1Rm8v1keADYEn76
Instagram: mj_c_golf

John Kavanaugh

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2023, 06:55:18 AM »
Why do you guys believe what the magazines tell you?  Ratings matter!!! They form the opinions of the public and other raters. What a waste of time.

Michael Chadwick

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2023, 12:15:27 PM »
What a waste of time.


It's never a proper tournament until someone bemoans the state of the bracket and its outcomes. Thank you for playing the part!
Instagram: mj_c_golf

John Kavanaugh

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2023, 12:42:05 PM »
The Valley Club won my bracket. A truer reflection of reality.

Michael Morandi

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2023, 10:38:09 PM »
Recently the college presidents of some of the most elite universities in the country have come out against the ratings game, concerned that the ratings methodology is flawed and that applicants and their families place  too much emphasis on getting in to the top schools instead of the colleges that might be a better fit for them. What are the chances that the presidents and members of the top golf clubs will also shun the ratings game?  Some have, by not indulging golf raters. But the others?

Sean_A

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2023, 01:35:48 AM »
I often wonder why the elite private clubs bother with raters. What's the point? Just like the top universities, they don't need a rating system to inform the public how good they are.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Tom_Doak

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2023, 06:49:36 AM »
I often wonder why the elite private clubs bother with raters. What's the point? Just like the top universities, they don't need a rating system to inform the public how good they are.



Are you really elite if people don’t bow down to you?  I’ve been amazed at how much some of these clubs care.  The president of Seminole’s hissy fit at being rated behind Shadow Creek thirty years ago was the all time classic.

Tom_Doak

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2023, 06:56:24 AM »
What are the chances that the presidents and members of the top golf clubs will also shun the ratings game?  Some have, by not indulging golf raters. But the others?


No club to my knowledge has told the magazines not to list them.  I heard a rumor long ago that Fishers Island may have done that, but the course was not listed in the GOLF rankings because not enough panelists had been there yet.


They may not accept panelists except as the guest of a member, but they do so in the comfort of knowing they’re going to be ranked near the top - and they may even be restricting access to protect the ranking they have.

Sean_A

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2023, 09:04:42 AM »
I often wonder why the elite private clubs bother with raters. What's the point? Just like the top universities, they don't need a rating system to inform the public how good they are.



Are you really elite if people don’t bow down to you?  I’ve been amazed at how much some of these clubs care.  The president of Seminole’s hissy fit at being rated behind Shadow Creek thirty years ago was the all time classic.

I too wonder what the fuss is about. It's understandable if ratings help drive business, but really, there must be at least 30 or 50 clubs in the US where the ratings are useless.

I do know of a few clubs that declined to be rated by publications. There is one club in England where its hard to tell on their website if they have a course!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

John Kavanaugh

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2023, 12:24:00 PM »
Raters were influencers before influence became a dirty word.

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2023, 01:56:52 PM »
Michael--


I missed the first few rounds (my bad) but just voted in the quarters.  As a follow up you might do the same with the top 64 on GOLF Magazine's World list!!




Michael Chadwick

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Elite Eight*
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2023, 04:17:49 PM »
Michael--


I missed the first few rounds (my bad) but just voted in the quarters.  As a follow up you might do the same with the top 64 on GOLF Magazine's World list!!


Paul,


While you might've missed early voting, it's never too late to offer commentary on current or past matchups!


World List is a good idea for 2024.   
Instagram: mj_c_golf

Michael Chadwick

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Final Four*
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2023, 11:27:19 PM »
The Final Four is set with the 1 seeds avoiding any upset throughout the tournament.


1. Pine Valley vs 1. Cypress Point
1. Shinnecock Hills vs 1. National Golf Links of America


I personally was pulling for two 2-seeds to make it through, and there were moments that Sand Hills was within a vote of overtaking Shinnecock, but SHGC pulled away in the end.


East
1. Pine Valley 71% > 2. Merion 29%


West
1. Cypress Point 82% > 2. Augusta 18%


South
1. Shinnecock 54% > 2. Sand Hills 46%


Midwest
1. NGLA 77% > Fishers Island 23%


Long Island will have a course in the national championship. Just how far westward its opponent will be located remains to be seen.


Our Final Four voting is live from now until the men's first game tip-off, SAT 4/1 3 pm PT: https://forms.gle/rPVocmnQco7sqhXC8   



Instagram: mj_c_golf

John Kavanaugh

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Final Four*
« Reply #64 on: March 29, 2023, 09:52:55 AM »
April Madness is approaching. Is Augusta the best place in the country for at least a month?

Michael Chadwick

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *VOTING Final Four*
« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2023, 06:38:21 PM »
The national championship is set:


1. Cypress Point vs. 1. National Golf Links of America


Final Four results:
1. Pine Valley 22% < 1. Cypress Point 78%
1. Shinnecock 27% < 1. NGLA 73%


I was expecting both matchups to be much closer than how voting turned out.


Voting for the championship is now live until Monday, 4/3 at 9 pm PT: https://forms.gle/2GkaQTPdP78rkg7G8



Instagram: mj_c_golf

Michael Morandi

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2023, 10:01:35 PM »
Both CPC and NGLA are great places to be and enjoyable courses to play but absent that criteria I fail to understand their predominance over PV and Shinny. Having played all 4 of them I would not make them finalists unless the rating is for the “experience”.

Jim O’Kane

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2023, 02:55:45 AM »
I wish I was in the same tax bracket as you all are in order to render some sort of worthwhile opinion to vote on these courses I only know through reading, much like, The Giving Tree, The Tao of Pooh, or many Doonsebury comics.

I had hoped that at this point in 56 trips around the sun, I would have been. But, I suspect it's dropping out of law school, driving a cab in San Francisco, then having a more "hands on" approach to the law thereby landing a job with the Lipset Service in San Francisco (at my ripe age of 27 where I thought I was surely making it), meeting Hunter Thompson, Warren Hinkle, former Mayor Joseph, Aliato, then Mayor Art Agnos, and then working with former SF chief of Police Frank Jordan at the Lipset Service, who became mayor a year or so before I left the Bay Area....and after all that, I am still a peasant of sorts -- albeit with a colorful history who has met and worked with a number of wonderful people, whereby, I have never become so myself so as to comment on such a ranking which, as a former D1 golfer, and knowing all these places through various readings, which may as well be fiction to me, only seems to render my own self, and opinions, much like fiction as well.

As for those who have inferred the above Bay Area references, I can factually state without regret, I suppose, I was never invited to the Cal Club, Olympic, Merced, SF Golf Club, because with a history like mine, I was none too surprised anyway.
However, even after I moved away in 95, it never kept me from missing San Geronimo, and sad at its demise, and conversely, despise, the opening #1 of both Lincoln Park, which I always considered a course "beneath me" that I never got "on top of", and #1 at Gleneagles, which, on some days, could very well be the most diabolical course on the planet with 40* weather, 30mph winds, and built on the side of a massive hill/mountain carved out of 6 story California Pines. 

I will say though, that without giving a binocular type look at the list provided here (I didn't feel the need as it wasn't in my alley, so to speak) -- two of the most beautiful places I've ever been able to set foot on, whereby my weirdness as a human being, and my come and go golf game was appreciated, when I appreciated my visit and acceptance, twice as much back, was The Country Club Of Florida, and Haig Point.

Are they on the list? They should be. Not necessarily architecturally only speaking, although, one could make good arguments I suppose...but merely for the class they exude, while having a pretty damn decent track on top of it where they're both largely underplayed, that you feel like the only person on the planet while you're there.

While you may not be, the fact that the organization makes you feel like you are, speaks volumes--at least to my soul.

I have no idea why I felt the need to type this other than having returned from Myrtle Beach, on a vacation, paid top 100 course private rack rates at public resort courses that neither held their warrant in condition or layout, and on top of that, because of my long hair, lanky Bobby Clampett look and Dave Hill attitude, got treated like shit.

I hate golf and people sometimes.

But I sure like reading what you all have to say here and the fact that of all the other sports I played in my life, only golf has a different playing field in every arena -- and you discuss them all with class.

That restores my faith in humanity. I will continue to sit on the end of the bench, observe, listen and learn. Thank you all, for all your sharing.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2023, 03:07:00 AM by Jim O’Kane »

Tim Leahy

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2023, 06:27:46 AM »
Just out of curiosity how many on this site have actually played both Cypress Point and NGLA in person and not on a video game.
Of those few(?) what is your vote and why? ???
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Tom_Doak

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
« Reply #69 on: April 02, 2023, 10:27:50 AM »
Just out of curiosity how many on this site have actually played both Cypress Point and NGLA in person and not on a video game.
Of those few(?) what is your vote and why? ???


The National and Cypress Point were the two courses I most admired before I headed overseas, and I struck up a friendship with the two professionals, Jim Langley and Mike Mueller, by going back so many times, which gave me kind of a hall pass to play them in the off season.  Being welcome there was probably the greatest perk of my career.  [Unfortunately, both of those gentlemen have passed away, so I have to hit up a member to go back now, and I don't do that nearly so often.]


I always have a hard time trying to separate the two -- they are both 10's in my book, as were Pine Valley and Shinnecock, but they are much more fun for the 5- to 10-handicap than the other two, which are exhausting tests of golf, if that is your bag.  Indeed, GOLF Magazine makes us vote for our "top 3" courses, and it's infuriating because I have a top 4, and with The Old Course and Royal Melbourne as the best of all worlds, I am stuck trying to decide which of these two courses must be ranked fourth.


I don't even remember which way I went with my vote last time; it just depends on which I am pining to go back to the most.  You've got to be very nit-picky to say one is better than the other.


However, I'll go out on a limb and say I expect The National to win this game, because posters here are so enamored with the CBM templates . . . if Chicago Golf beat Pacific Dunes, then National will beat Cypress Point.

Michael Morandi

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2023, 11:07:17 AM »
If the same people who chose CPC and NGLA for the finals also filled out an NCAA bracket, to be true to their criteria they would have Princeton in the finals for its tradition and style of basketball. But as well as Princeton played this year, it was never going to be a finalist and IMHO nether should CPC and NGLA although I recognize Tom Doak’s points above

Tom_Doak

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2023, 11:59:36 AM »
If the same people who chose CPC and NGLA for the finals also filled out an NCAA bracket, to be true to their criteria they would have Princeton in the finals for its tradition and style of basketball. But as well as Princeton played this year, it was never going to be a finalist and IMHO nether should CPC and NGLA although I recognize Tom Doak’s points above


If you really think golf architecture is supposed to be about rewarding strength and clubhead speed and finding out who is the most "elite" player, you might be in the wrong place!

John Kirk

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2023, 12:09:02 PM »
Jim O'Kane,

Thanks for your post.  I liked it.

I voted for Cypress Point over Pine Valley, even though I have never played either course.  I once walked Cypress Point with my Dad in about 1982 or 1983, watching George Burns and Lanny Wadkins play the course during the Bing Crosby Pro-Am.  I am from northern California, and northern California's most beautiful and serene place is the Monterey Peninsula.  I trust the critics who say that both Pine Valley and Cypress Point are sensational.  All other things being equal, I'd rather be playing golf in Monterey than in New Jersey.

I voted for Shinnecock Hills over NGLA because I played each course once in 2006 and I liked Shinnecock better.  Both my wife and I were probably at our peak as players, and what I mostly remember was some of the great plays she made on that trip.  I don't have any fine analysis.  Golf course assessment combines so many elements that you make a general call about how much you like a course.  It's little stuff.  In the late afternoon as we were walking up Shinnecock's sixteenth fairway, I looked across the way and saw a father teaching his young son how to play on the long par 3 second hole.  Maybe that magical moment that reminded me this great club is also for families was the difference.  I had a great time at both courses, but the way Shinny plays in that big open field just hits my sweet spot.   
« Last Edit: April 02, 2023, 03:10:27 PM by John Kirk »

Michael Morandi

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2023, 12:22:49 PM »
If the same people who chose CPC and NGLA for the finals also filled out an NCAA bracket, to be true to their criteria they would have Princeton in the finals for its tradition and style of basketball. But as well as Princeton played this year, it was never going to be a finalist and IMHO nether should CPC and NGLA although I recognize Tom Doak’s points above


If you really think golf architecture is supposed to be about rewarding strength and clubhead speed and finding out who is the most "elite" player, you might be in the wrong place!


I’m in the right place. Remember that the competition is in the context of an NCAA bracket, which rewards the the best teams  composed of elite athletes in an endurance contest.

Michael Chadwick

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Re: 2023 Golf Course March Madness Bracket - *CHAMPIONSHIP VOTING*
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2023, 12:49:41 PM »
Both CPC and NGLA are great places to be and enjoyable courses to play but absent that criteria I fail to understand their predominance over PV and Shinny. Having played all 4 of them I would not make them finalists unless the rating is for the “experience”.


What criteria have gone into your own selections, Michael? Part of the motivation behind doing a bracket was to try to elicit that kind of discussion. Some respondents only selected courses they've played. Some considered if they only had 1 round to play, which course would they choose. I prefer doing hole-by-hole matchups, with an amalgamated criteria based on my understanding of architecture, the hole's distinctiveness, and--as a tie-breaker--the hole I'd prefer to play. 


I don't think your Princeton analogy is quite right, since the 1 seeds all made this particular final four. Yes, you're right to note that the overall #1 seed per GOLF Magazine, Pine Valley, didn't make it to the championship, but it didn't lose to a cinderella.


What makes a bracket exercise different than asking people to rank courses as if they were a rater is that it does allow personal preference and an element of wish fulfillment to influence decisions. It's in the explanation of those biases, and the personal comparison among courses, that I've enjoyed hearing from others.   
Instagram: mj_c_golf

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