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Tommy Williamsen

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Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« on: March 02, 2023, 05:20:18 PM »
I mean the whole course, not just individual holes.
I played CC of Scranton last September. When I walked off the course, I thought those Travis greens had the most slope, undulation, and interior contouring of any classic-era course I have played. I thought I hit a good shot into 18, but there was a little mound between me and the pin in the middle of the green. As a result, two putts were only possible if I made a 15-footer, which I didnít. Not all of the greens were so wild, but many made me look silly. I loved it. It would take a long time to learn how to play the course. Iíve always thought that the greens are what make courses interesting.
White Bear Yacht Club and Crystal Downs are a close second. Finally, some newer courses like Lost Dunes have a lot of slope and undulation. Somehow, they feel different, but I canít put my finger on why it seems that way.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Dean DiBerardino

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2023, 07:13:06 PM »
Mid Pines
Southern Pines
Oakland Hills South
Engineers
Canton Brookside
Prairie Dunes
Old Town Club



Tom_Doak

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2023, 08:24:56 PM »
I mean the whole course, not just individual holes.
I played CC of Scranton last September. When I walked off the course, I thought those Travis greens had the most slope, undulation, and interior contouring of any classic-era course I have played. I thought I hit a good shot into 18, but there was a little mound between me and the pin in the middle of the green. As a result, two putts were only possible if I made a 15-footer, which I didnít. Not all of the greens were so wild, but many made me look silly. I loved it. It would take a long time to learn how to play the course. Iíve always thought that the greens are what make courses interesting.
White Bear Yacht Club and Crystal Downs are a close second. Finally, some newer courses like Lost Dunes have a lot of slope and undulation. Somehow, they feel different, but I canít put my finger on why it seems that way.


The difference is that most of the older greens contain their undulations to break up a substantial back to front tilt, instead of creating undulations on s flatter green site.  Also, modern greens are dialed down to 3% or less in the areas for hole locations, where Scranton or Crystal Downs have a wider range of slopes within the green.

MCirba

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2023, 08:41:52 PM »
Hollywood, Oakmont, Oakland Hiils, and Scranton are in the very top tier.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mike Bodo

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2023, 09:26:05 PM »
Hollywood, Oakmont, Oakland Hiils, and Scranton are in the very top tier.
Oakland Hills has been mentioned twice. However, having caddied on both the North and South courses a gazillion times I can emphatically say the greens of the Langford - Moreau nine at Marquette Golf Club blow them away for both their combination of steepness, pitch and interior undulations. If those greens ever ran as fast OHCC's did during select tournaments and, of course, majors, they'd be unputtable. I absolutely love those greens.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Max Prokopy

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2023, 09:46:08 PM »
Taconic and Winged Foot west come to mind as far as big names but there are some old school mountain courses with near unplayable slopes.

Tim Leahy

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2023, 09:54:22 PM »
LACC North at least when I played it many years ago. I was a good putter and had two four putts. As Tom said most were back to front sloped and even though I was below the hole had a putt lipout and finish behind me. FAST! ???
The US OPEN there could be really fun if it ever stops raining in LA.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

MCirba

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2023, 10:00:04 PM »
Augusta National.   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sean_A

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2023, 02:01:06 AM »
Grosse Ile is right there with Oakland Hills.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Clyne, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, West Byfleet, North Foreland & Ladybank

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2023, 03:42:59 AM »
Just get some old greens that have never been "flattened" for overall slope but have been sped up in spreed...two prime examples are Brookside (OH) and Brae Burn (MA).  But that comes with some almost unpinabble greens.


I think 10th green at Winged Foot W has been "flattened" something like 3x or 4x in last 70 years
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 03:44:42 AM by Paul Rudovsky »

Steve Lapper

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2023, 05:53:47 AM »
Somerset Hills certainly deserves a mention.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2023, 06:42:35 AM »
Just get some old greens that have never been "flattened" for overall slope but have been sped up in spreed...two prime examples are Brookside (OH) and Brae Burn (MA).  But that comes with some almost unpinabble greens.


I think 10th green at Winged Foot W has been "flattened" something like 3x or 4x in last 70 years


Crystal Downs has to be a poster child for this. Not huge internal undulation. All about significant slope that has been sped up.

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2023, 09:10:38 AM »
Cape Arundel might have the craziest greens I've ever seen, and that's not even limiting it to classic era courses.

MCirba

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2023, 11:05:46 AM »
Cape Arundel might have the craziest greens I've ever seen, and that's not even limiting it to classic era courses.


Great one, Dan!


I may be biased but I suspect most remaining untouched Walter J. Travis designed greens would be at the top of any "internal contours" within the green discussion, with those courses with the most well-preserved Travis greens (like Cape Arundel, Hollywood, Scranton, and some others) rising to the top tier.   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kalen Braley

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2023, 11:45:09 AM »
The greens at Indian Canyon have a ton of terrific movement...and the entire course for that matter as many holes play thru giant swells.

Interestingly enough, they slowed thier greens down due to complaints about 3 jacks and worse.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2023, 11:55:15 AM »
Olympia Fields South
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ira Fishman

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2023, 02:12:24 PM »
Yale and Pasatiempo deserve a mention. Not quite sure how to think about PH2 relative to the question.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2023, 03:03:02 PM »
Cape Arundel might have the craziest greens I've ever seen, and that's not even limiting it to classic era courses.


Great one, Dan!


I may be biased but I suspect most remaining untouched Walter J. Travis designed greens would be at the top of any "internal contours" within the green discussion, with those courses with the most well-preserved Travis greens (like Cape Arundel, Hollywood, Scranton, and some others) rising to the top tier.


Untouched Travis greens are a rarity but preserved ones are great fun.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tim Martin

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2023, 03:11:33 PM »
Yale


Ira-Good call with Yale. 1,4,7,8,9,10,12,17 and 18 all have next level movement. If you think about the remaining holes excluding 3 which is not original to the design there is also plenty to envy.


Mark Pearce

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2023, 05:24:35 PM »
The Old Course? 
In July 2022 I will be riding 3 stages of the Tour de France,  in the Alps, to raise money for the William Wates Memorial Trust which is dedicated to providing opportunities for under privileged young adults.  To support the Trust, please visit https://fundraising.wwmt.org/fundraisers/MarkPearce/rid

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2023, 05:46:50 PM »
The Old Course?


My bad to be US Centric. Woking has one of the most interesting set of greens that I have been fortunate enough to play.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2023, 08:44:57 PM »
Teugega has some of the coolest Ross greens I have played.


Yahnundasis has some terrific Travis greens .


Keith Phillips

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2023, 09:43:10 PM »
Montclair Golf Club in New Jersey.  Among the best greens in the Met.

jeffwarne

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Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2023, 08:43:18 AM »
Palmetto


Get it while you can.
You really have to think about every approach-not just where to land, but how the ball is flighted and spinning, as well as where your next shot is being played from.
Really one of the very few places with greens where being above the hole or even pin high on certain greens is not good.

A "regrassing" is happening in May and I've yet to see one of those where it was just a grass thing once all was said and done.
Fingers(and toes) crossed that there is no attempt at justifying flattening with the old "intent"  and more pin placements mantra, that we have seen at so many places.
Some great, thoughtful, highly skilled and knowledgeable people involved there but I've just never seen newer grassing that didn't create more speed and a vicous cycle of reducing slope .




Heavy sigh.
It sure ain't broke...
« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 08:48:08 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Blain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Classic era courses with the most movement in the greens.
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2023, 10:12:01 AM »
Cape Arundel might have the craziest greens I've ever seen, and that's not even limiting it to classic era courses.


Great one, Dan!


I may be biased but I suspect most remaining untouched Walter J. Travis designed greens would be at the top of any "internal contours" within the green discussion, with those courses with the most well-preserved Travis greens (like Cape Arundel, Hollywood, Scranton, and some others) rising to the top tier.


Untouched Travis greens are a rarity but preserved ones are great fun.
Country Club of Troy has an original set of Travis greens save for the front of the 8th green which had some minor work done to it years ago. This was the last course that Travis designed.

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