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Adam Lawrence

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Maxwell and MacKenzie
« on: March 19, 2023, 05:33:49 AM »
Is there any clear evidence as to how Dr. MacKenzie and Perry Maxwell first met, and how/why MacKenzie invited Maxwell to collaborate with him? I've seen something online that says they met 'when Maxwell visited Scotland in 1919': this is too vague to be trusted without further corroboration, especially since MacKenzie didn't live in Scotland (he might, of course, have been there on business or holiday, but as I said, further corroboration needed). I don't have Chris Clouser's book to hand.

thanks

Adam
« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 06:24:50 AM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mike Feeney

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Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2023, 11:08:02 AM »
I couldn't find "direct" evidence...suspect you have seen these references:
Car ride fact/fiction:      http://mackenziesociety.org/club/crystal-downs/      https://www.perrymaxwellarchive.com/crystak-downsFebruary 1928 mysterious Newspaper clipping
      https://twitter.com/DornickMaxwell/status/1225093067801288708?s=20


   


Meeting in UK:

    https://oklahomagolfhof.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Perry_Maxwell.pdf

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2023, 11:33:18 AM »
Maxwell didn't travel overseas until 1923. 


They most likely met at St. Andrews in September of that year. 


As people did back then, they probably kept up their correspondence until meeting again in January of 1926 when MacKenzie came through Oklahoma on his way from New York to California.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2023, 02:05:58 PM »
According to Chris Clouser’s book, Maxwell’s first trip to Scotland was shortly after the death of his wife in 1919, and met Dr MacKenzie on that trip.  It does not provide the specifics of that meeting, but he visited St Andrews as well as some family in Anstruther.  He summarizes that it was a “short” trip and he returned to Ardmore in September 1919.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2023, 02:40:50 PM »
According to the book The Life and Work of Dr. Alister MacKenzie by Doak, Scott, and Haddock, "Maxwell made an extended visit to Scotland" in 1923, where he met MacKenzie. (P 197-198)
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ira Fishman

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Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2023, 02:46:46 PM »
A century ago given travel challenges, it really is serendipitous that a local banker from Oklahoma (yes, his lineage is Scottish) and a doctor from England (yes, his lineage is Scottish) met and became design partners. In our time, Steve Jobs not firing Jony Ive when they first met is the closest parallel that comes to mind.


Ira

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2023, 03:56:07 PM »
I wouldn't take Clouser's work as a primary source.

There are no reports of travel abroad by Maxwell in 1919, although he did take a trip east that year following his wife's passing.  The trip to Scotland was reported on by the local Ardmore papers in 1923.  It was noted that Maxwell's purpose for the voyage was to study how links courses were built.

It shouldn't be any surprise that he and MacKenzie would get in touch.  There weren't many folks on either side of the pond doing this kind of work.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sean_A

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Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2023, 04:41:41 PM »
I was under the impression that Max and Mac met at a specific event at St Andrews? I don't recall though.

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 20, 2023, 01:21:36 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Dunlop_White

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Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2023, 09:51:10 PM »
Maxwell didn't travel overseas until 1923. 


They most likely met at St. Andrews in September of that year. 


As people did back then, they probably kept up their correspondence until meeting again in January of 1926 when MacKenzie came through Oklahoma on his way from New York to California.


I have everything Sven has above.....and don't know anything different...... mostly derived from Ed Oden's timeline.


Marty Bonnar

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Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2023, 09:34:33 AM »
From the chronology:
MacKenzie met Perry Maxwell in Britain during Maxwell’s visit, most likely in Scotland. Maxwell travelled on the S. S. Baltic from New York to Liverpool, arriving on September 23, 1923, putting his intended address as St. Andrews. As MacKenzie was in St. Andrews for the Royal Medal he likely met Maxwell there. Maxwell sailed out of Southampton on 20th October 1923 on the S. S. Mauretania, arriving into New York on 26th October
« Last Edit: March 20, 2023, 09:36:33 AM by Marty Bonnar »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2023, 02:44:42 PM »

As people did back then, they probably kept up their correspondence until meeting again in January of 1926 when MacKenzie came through Oklahoma on his way from New York to California.


Since most east to west passenger trains went through KC back in those days (even ones from St. Louis, and not just Chicago), Mac would have had to go far out of his way to reach Ardmore, OK.  I'm sure there were some trains south from KC going probably to Dallas or Ft Worth, but he would have to transfer somewhere.


Does your research capacity extend to railroad schedules?  I think Brad Klein actually had some of Ross's train schedules in his book about Ross. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2023, 02:55:48 PM »

As people did back then, they probably kept up their correspondence until meeting again in January of 1926 when MacKenzie came through Oklahoma on his way from New York to California.

Since most east to west passenger trains went through KC back in those days (even ones from St. Louis, and not just Chicago), Mac would have had to go far out of his way to reach Ardmore, OK.  I'm sure there were some trains south from KC going probably to Dallas or Ft Worth, but he would have to transfer somewhere.



Well, some of the Maxwell book has been called into question here, but it says that the two met in Oklahoma City, where Maxwell showed MacKenzie around Twin Hills and Nichols Hills, where MacKenzie's name was added to the course in progress.  The book also says, "It is also believed that they traveled south to visit Maxwell's home course at Dornick Hills," but there is no direct evidence of that presented.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2023, 03:01:27 PM »
Santa Fe did go southward to Texas from Newton, KS, so if he wanted to visit Maxwell in OK, he could have.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Chris Clouser

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Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2023, 06:51:34 PM »
In my many interviews with Dora Harrison, Maxwell's last living child, she recalled meeting Mackenzie twice.  Once was in Ardmore where they ate at the family home and after Mackenzie visited the course.  She didn't know exactly when that occurred but thought it was probably in the same trip when they toured the courses in Oklahoma City.  The second time was when Maxwell went to California for his one visit out there.  She couldn't recall when that actually occurred. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2023, 10:44:51 AM »
MacKenzie in Oklahoma City -

Jan. 26, 1926 Daily Oklahoman -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2023, 12:16:58 PM »
This is MacDonald's first trip to America? (Last line)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2023, 12:36:50 PM »
This is MacDonald's first trip to America? (Last line)


Don't believe everything you read in the paper!

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2023, 03:04:11 PM »
This is MacDonald's first trip to America? (Last line)


Don't believe everything you read in the paper!


Classic Rihc Goodale tyop!
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maxwell and MacKenzie
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2023, 09:45:34 AM »
From the chronology:
MacKenzie met Perry Maxwell in Britain during Maxwell’s visit, most likely in Scotland. Maxwell travelled on the S. S. Baltic from New York to Liverpool, arriving on September 23, 1923, putting his intended address as St. Andrews. As MacKenzie was in St. Andrews for the Royal Medal he likely met Maxwell there. Maxwell sailed out of Southampton on 20th October 1923 on the S. S. Mauretania, arriving into New York on 26th October



Thanks all. I just checked the papers of the day, and Dr. MacKenzie is indeed listed as a starter in the competition for the King William IV Medal of 1923, which was, for the first time, played over two days because of the number of competitors. It was something of a golf architectural Who's Who: among the competitors were Harry Colt, John Morrison, Stuart Paton, Cecil Key Hutchison, Samuel Mure Fergusson and Arthur Croome.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

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