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Marty Bonnar

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Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2023, 01:19:46 PM »
Take a look at the rest of the neighbourhood too. Garmouth & Kingston, Moray, Cullen, Duff House Royal. Its the new Bandon, dudes!
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2023, 05:59:28 AM »
I have actually been looking at this for the last few days. Its right up my street but not without reservations.


This video is awesome and will get everyone's taste buds going!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcdGXHlqLTQ


Tentatively I am looking at forming a UK Limited company with 400 shares at 2,500 per share, if anyone was interested and if you had 5 shares you have life membership if UK based, I am sure some locals would buy a few. Of course it might get sold very quickly to another and in my research further quirks my spring up.


There are a number of snags, membership fees and incomes are low, the course has poor identity, website, presence. I think the equipment is not great. I don't know what lease agreements are in place or secondary debt, or even the clubhouse situation.


The golf course is the money drain, the clubhouse might squeak out level par. The real key to financial success would be the expansion of the holiday accommodation with possibly new lodges. From looking at planning history over the last 10 years Moray council would appear to encourage the sort of development that would be wanted.


Primarily the golf course needs to be better to hit that 60 green fee market and fit in with being part of the circuit golfers want to play, perhaps longer and from google earth the course could easily have simple back tee extensions on at least 9 holes. the 13th is a bit rubbish but could be extended to a 400 yard par 4 taking advantage of the sea view and 15 I would realign again for the same reasons. With tee extensions at 2-3-5-6-7-9-10-11-12-14; That could take the course close to 7000 yards from the very back tees. The course length would hardly alter for normal play. That might seem unrequired to GCA opinion but it is part of the factoring for getting volumes of stay and play visitors. Would be interested to here anyone else's 'google earth' thoughts.


I don't know anything about the shingle and the problems that might be, there appears no irrigation system. Erosion of course is another unknown. A key point to always bear in mind is the distances between travelling to and from. Edinburgh airport is still over 3 hours away, Dornoch from SB might be nearly 2 hours. The area is rich for golf but linking Brora and further north to this for lodging is a bit of a stretch.


I also think this could be a project Tom Doak might want to get involved in for a %. That would give the whole thing some traction.
As already said some of the best sites are staring us in the face, Spey Bay has already got over the huge hurdles of planning law. This is a good head start.


Early Days...I have interest in 160 shares already.



A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2023, 08:19:58 AM »
Take a look at the rest of the neighbourhood too. Garmouth & Kingston, Moray, Cullen, Duff House Royal. Its the new Bandon, dudes!
F.


Shhhhh.
I had Donegal as a private playground for 25 years.
Lets not bring the masses here too.
I really enjoyed my time theregood bones. As does the entire untravelled** area dotted with cool low key courses
(by International visitors)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2023, 01:01:08 PM »
It's only an hour from Inverness airport or an hour 15 min from Aberdeen airport, each of which connect to London, Dublin and the continent and it's more or less the center point among Cruden Bay, Fraserburgh, Duff House Royal, Cullen, Moray, Nairn, Nairn Dunbar and Cabot/Castle Stuart. If there was a decent dormie house or other accommodation it could be the hub of a good week or so of nearby links, with a good mix of expensive big names and some bargain gems.



David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2023, 07:37:41 PM »
The closing date for offers to buy the course was February 23. The course is now "under offer." That did not take long!

https://www.struttandparker.com/properties/spey-bay-golf-club-caravan-park

It would certainly be interesting to know how much the property sells for.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2023, 02:37:26 AM »
Looks like it could be from this American crew:


https://www.coindesk.com/web3/2023/02/22/linksdao-to-bid-on-scottish-golf-course-following-vote/?outputType=amp


Scottish golf could feel like every other country in 50 years time: One big, commercial venture owned by foreign investors.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2023, 05:10:05 AM »
Looks like it could be from this American crew:


https://www.coindesk.com/web3/2023/02/22/linksdao-to-bid-on-scottish-golf-course-following-vote/?outputType=amp

Scottish golf could feel like every other country in 50 years time: One big, commercial venture owned by foreign investors.

You could argue that there is too much money at the top end of Scottish golf. People drool over grass paths that are 5 feet wide 😕.

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 05, 2023, 05:12:49 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Iona, Tobermory, Minehead & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2023, 05:21:36 AM »
Looks like it could be from this American crew:


https://www.coindesk.com/web3/2023/02/22/linksdao-to-bid-on-scottish-golf-course-following-vote/?outputType=amp

Scottish golf could feel like every other country in 50 years time: One big, commercial venture owned by foreign investors.

You could argue that there is too much money at the top end of Scottish golf. People drool over grass paths that are 5 feet wide 😕.

Ciao


Correct. Grass paths are a luxury, not one I have at the links courses Im working with where were just trying to reduce and improve the hard path material whilst increasing areas of grass that can be used without irrigation. Either that or you accept completely broken paths that kill the buggies and trollies. Whilst I quite like that, clubs hate it


anyway, off topic. Just relevant to what Im dealing with right now.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2023, 05:34:07 AM »
Looks like it could be from this American crew:


https://www.coindesk.com/web3/2023/02/22/linksdao-to-bid-on-scottish-golf-course-following-vote/?outputType=amp

Scottish golf could feel like every other country in 50 years time: One big, commercial venture owned by foreign investors.

You could argue that there is too much money at the top end of Scottish golf. People drool over grass paths that are 5 feet wide .

Ciao


Correct. Grass paths are a luxury, not one I have at the links courses Im working with where were just trying to reduce and improve the hard path material whilst increasing areas of grass that can be used without irrigation. Either that or you accept completely broken paths that kill the buggies and trollies. Whilst I quite like that, clubs hate it


anyway, off topic. Just relevant to what Im dealing with right now.

Remember the old seashell paths? I miss those.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Iona, Tobermory, Minehead & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2023, 07:03:20 AM »
Im using a quartz stone at the moment that isnt a million miles away from the old seashell effect.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2023, 10:42:58 AM »
Ally -

Thanks for the LinksDAO info. I had no idea such a group existed. I am not sure how it functions in terms of how decisions get made, who signs the checks, etc.

My guess is there was more than one offer made on the property and the selling price will be well above the 750,000 pounds "offers above" stated.

DT

p.s. Don't forget that there was a time when the British Empire (much of the world) was one big, commercial venture owned by British (foreign) investors. ;)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2023, 10:55:41 AM by David_Tepper »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2023, 11:54:40 AM »
There is a LinksDAO Community podcast regarding their plans for Spey Bay on youtube that was recorded on March 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmBA0jcvK8A

Based on what was said, it is clear there are multiple bidders and the selling price will be well above 750,000 pounds.
 

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2023, 01:31:24 PM »
There is a LinksDAO Community podcast regarding their plans for Spey Bay on youtube that was recorded on March 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmBA0jcvK8A

Based on what was said, it is clear there are multiple bidders and the selling price will be well above 750,000 pounds.


Skip to 6mins, or even 7mins, perhaps 8, 12?....lots of havering...then general chat. Understandably light on detail.


Amazed they seem to have put in a bid without (it seems) a clear and strong plan of what they are going to do to the course and facilities, the cost of that and then how make the money back. In my experience starting to spend on a project without that clear plan as reference, is the best way to loose money. I guess if you have lots in the bank the need to spend it is compelling.


If you listen to the previous one (around 28mins)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA2TNIRaOmQ
they are very excited by the cost only being 10 to 20% of buying a course in the US.
They discuss business plan around 36mins.  There is talk of building 'cottages/lodges' - may work in US but rare in UK. JCB? Renaissance?
At 39mins they talk about a management company to run it day to day, Kemper are mentioned. "Take 3-4% of the revenue"
Approx 3 years ago I played Elgin which is very close by. Great course, with a vastly higher quality profile than Spey Bay, and the 20 twilight fee is one the best bargains I've had. 
20 does not pay for maintenance let alone enhancing this, adding improvements to/redesigning the course, new lodges and a return on capital. Currently Spey Bay has a very low public profile.  I haven't played it but, to reference a current thread, it's selling points are 'subtle'. They are promising their 'community' an experience where you will feel special.
It will take some special changes to allow for a new high end green fee model in that part of the world.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2023, 01:36:00 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2023, 05:37:07 PM »
I just listened to some of the podcast and couple of things that I took out of it. There was a substantial number of bids at closing date, some of which were quite readily turned down, leaving six offers for consideration of which the Links bid was one. It wasn't clear whether they were the preferred bidder but I would guess not judging by some of their comments.


The other thing I found interesting was that they spoke to 8 different architects about what to do with the course, one of whom was already retained by another bidder. Maybe that's the norm but 8 seems excessive. How much time are they likely to give it knowing that the potential client is speaking 7 others ?


Niall



 

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2023, 03:45:19 AM »
I never got there in time I was still doing my research and it was already gone.


750,000 was very cheap though clearly its gone for more. I have never heard of these people though I thought their ideas were generally pretty good.


I don't think Spey Bay has an irrigation system so you can add a maybe half a million on, I concur that it would not take much to take this to quite a high level. As the podcast stated they have three levels of plan. Elevation of some tees and some movement of greens to get more visibility of the sea could make it spectacular.


I kept juggling with the and weighing up the headaches with the remoteness of the project. For me it was not so bad as we have Bristol-Inverness flights a few times a week and the airport is 45 minutes from the course.


Make no mistake remoteness does not work for UK people, we don't travel well like the Americans do and very few people in a golf membership >less than 1% drive an hour to play as their main course, it has to be really special for that.... draw your hour circle and there are other greats within. Lodging and cottages are the way to get some payback though it is not an easy one, I am not 100% convinced its an easy American market for them staying Dornoch is still two hours away by car.


Inverness Airport is fairly close but there are no direct USA flights as far as I am aware I expect the same is true with Aberdeen so Glasgow/Edinburgh is kinda 4 hours away.


As it stands there are not many playing the course. The shingle gave me a headache as I am not familiar, fairways get about two cuts per year apparently, but that will be because growth is very slow, top soil depth is just over an inch.


I wish the new people luck with the project and hope they can make the place very special.


BTW I had about 200 shares sold several interested from here (I was having 100 myself) when I heard bids were going over 750.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2023, 06:30:46 AM »
Im a big fan of Spey Bay.  It definitely deserves to be better known and, with some sympathetic tweaks, it could be even better.  Id love to think that the right buyer at the right price could achieve that and make a decent business of it.


However, I do struggle with the idea that it could be turned into a place that could compete to attract many more travelling golfers at significantly higher green fees.  Something that hasnt been mentioned, on top of its remoteness, is that its right next to a landfill site.  On the day I played, the smell was certainly noticeable and there was a fair amount of rubbish blowing around. Id played 20, so was annoyed by the environmental impact more than any sense Id been ripped off.  Id probably felt differently if Id paid 100.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2023, 07:56:29 AM »
The shingle gave me a headache as I am not familiar, fairways get about two cuts per year apparently, but that will be because growth is very slow, top soil depth is just over an inch.



Adrian


Interesting you say that. Listening to the podcast they seemed to be of the view that it would be as easy as moving sand about in a sand box but I tend to think they will at least have to put it through some sort of sieve. They were also talking about it not taking much to significantly improve the course. I suppose if you throw the same amount of money at it as you would a typical US country club course you might be right but I very much doubt you'll get the payback. More to the point though, the real beauty of Spey Bay is it's rustic charm and remote location. Trying to transform it into something more pristine would just spoil what's there without necessarily replacing it with something that's any better.


Niall 

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2023, 08:04:07 AM »

However, I do struggle with the idea that it could be turned into a place that could compete to attract many more travelling golfers at significantly higher green fees.  Something that hasnt been mentioned, on top of its remoteness, is that its right next to a landfill site.  On the day I played, the smell was certainly noticeable and there was a fair amount of rubbish blowing around. Id played 20, so was annoyed by the environmental impact more than any sense Id been ripped off.  Id probably felt differently if Id paid 100.


...call me the cynic but I was wondering why it was being sold with such a short deadline? Not much smell of it in February...
Let's make GCA grate again!

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2023, 08:14:09 AM »
Tony


I think you're being overly cynical. The landfill site has been there for decades and I've played during the summer without being turned off by any smells. Wind blown rubbish will be more of a problem, particularly if they are looking to charge premium rates.


Niall

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2023, 09:40:41 AM »
I never got there in time I was still doing my research and it was already gone.
A shame. Id like to have something arise.
Atb

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2023, 01:59:57 PM »
The latest LinksDAO Community conference call was posted on youtube yesterday. There was a brief discussion of Spey Bay from roughly 10:45 to 12:10. They claim their offer is one of the ones being considered and they should know more in 2 to 3 weeks. The rest of the call was devoted to a plan to add a large number of new members.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rVALptPyy0&t=1277s 




Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2023, 02:31:05 PM »

The other thing I found interesting was that they spoke to 8 different architects about what to do with the course, one of whom was already retained by another bidder. Maybe that's the norm but 8 seems excessive. How much time are they likely to give it knowing that the potential client is speaking 7 others ?



"Spoke to" is extremely vague . . . they emailed me about setting up a call, and they are probably counting that.  They also messaged me here, as someone from the company is a member of the Discussion Group, which I didn't know.

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2023, 04:43:29 PM »

Inverness Airport is fairly close but there are no direct USA flights as far as I am aware I expect the same is true with Aberdeen



That's correct, but for US visitors either Inverness or Aberdeen are easy, and not very expensive, connections from London. I've flown to both from LHR without any problems


Inverness has flights to/from London (LHR, Gat, Lut), other cities in England as well as Edi, Belfast and Amsterdam


Aberdeen is significantly bigger, serving London and other UK locations, Spain, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Poland and Switzerland

JohnVDB

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Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2023, 01:03:44 PM »

Inverness Airport is fairly close but there are no direct USA flights as far as I am aware I expect the same is true with Aberdeen



That's correct, but for US visitors either Inverness or Aberdeen are easy, and not very expensive, connections from London. I've flown to both from LHR without any problems


Inverness has flights to/from London (LHR, Gat, Lut), other cities in England as well as Edi, Belfast and Amsterdam


Aberdeen is significantly bigger, serving London and other UK locations, Spain, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Poland and Switzerland


True.  I will be flying from Newark to LHR to Inverness in three weeks.  I do it twice a year and it is not a problem at all.  Much easier than flying to Edinburgh and then driving up there. The 2.5 hour layover in London is a good refresher.


Before BA returned to Inverness a few years ago, I flew to Aberdeen. Again, an easier drive than from Edinburgh or Glasgow.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A GCA Home LINKS in Scotland for less than 1k each?
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2023, 03:12:00 PM »
Brand new LinksDAO podcast, "We are buying a golf course"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YskYVOGQNV0

Their offer to buy the course has been accepted, Due diligence to follow.

By the way, does anyone know the principals of LinksDAO or even know anyone who is a member?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2023, 03:47:55 PM by David_Tepper »

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