[Ira Fishman]

The RTJ Jr interview prompted me to think about non-Jones architects associated with that era. Dick Wilson has been discussed quite a bit here.


But what about his sometimes partner Joe Lee? I played only a couple of his courses but in addition to Cog Hill 4 (with Wilson), I enjoyed Plum Tree National (nle) and Pine Meadow quite a bit. None of them through the foggy memory of time struck me as strictly “hard par, easy bogey”.


And George Fazio? Butler National is a brute but it is not gimmicky or formulaic, and I remember the greens being different from the RTJ approach.


In other words, does the long shadow of RTJ unfairly obscure the work of others of that era?


Thanks.


Ira

[Tom_Doak]

Joe Lee and Bob von Hagge were associates for Dick Wilson, not partners, or at least until the very end.


RTJ Sr did his best to overshadow others.  George Fazio kind of picked up as RTJ’s main rival where Dick Wilson left off when he passed . . . But there was also space for Pete Dye to start getting attention.

[A.G._Crockett]

George Cobb.

[Keith Williams]

I'll second AG's mention of George Cobb.


I'll also add that I grew up playing in the Atlanta area and saw first-hand the architect family tree of the Dick Wilson-Joe Lee line, which offered some interesting design observations.


I first learned to play on what may have been Dick Wilson's last* course (1964/65) (asterisk considering the other thread on final course claims), but regardless of where it fell in his final designs and knowing Wilson's declining health at the end of his career, one could reasonably assume that the course was effectively a Joe Lee design.  But with that said, I always found that the course had more artistry/flair, better bunkering and more variety in its routing than the later Joe Lee courses in the area.


Over time, in late 1980's and 1990's, Joe Lee started incorporating Rocky Roquemore as an associate and eventually Rocky started constructing solo designs.  Roquemore's work largely resembled the area's Joe Lee designs with bunkering lacking detail work and not much creativity in the routings.  Finally, sometime around the year 2000 or so, Rocky brought in his brother-in-law, Jeff Burton as an associate and it feels like Jeff somehow injected some creativity and artistry back into their designs.


Finally, to piggyback on Tom's note:  while their style has fallen out favor, I really wish there were some well-preserved examples out there of the von Hagge/Devlin work that they did in the 1980's.  Fun, dramatic and sometimes extreme golf that could almost serve as a museum piece of 1980's design.


-Keith

[Jim Sherma]

Growing up in Eastern and now living in Central Pennsylvania there seem to be a lot more William & David Gordon, George Fazio, and Ed Ault courses from the post war RTJ/Wilson era.


Surprised that I had play so few RTJ courses until I looked up what was in PA and found that the only original design in PA according to the RTJ Society - Tamiment - 1947 - now NLE (a few remodels are listed but no other new courses).
 

[Bernie Bell]

Ault, Cobb, Gordon, Bell, Ellis Maples.  Not "dark." 

[Edward Glidewell]

Willard Byrd designed a lot of golf courses in the southeast in that era.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yes, RTJ and Wilson garnerd most of the attention from 1950-1965 or so.


Active ASGCA members in that period (working on things like affordable muni courses rather than US Open venues and high profile resorts) included, among others, Wayne Styles, Robert White, William Tucker, Willard Wilkinson, James Harrison, Vernon Macan, Billy Bell, Howard Watson, Norman Woods, Press Maxwell, CE Robinson, Ralph Plummer, Lawrence Hughs, Floyd Farley, Warren Cantrell, Mark Mahannah, George Cobb, Willam Neff, Alfred Tull, Ellis Maples,  Fred Garbin, Francis Duane (with Palmer for a bit, and only architect to ever die of an onsite infection), Larry Packard, Arthur Snyder, John Darrah, Percy Clifford, Bill Amick, Al Zikourus, Phil Wogan, Hentry Hughes, Dick Phelps, Dave Gill, Milt Coggins, Bruce and Jerry Matthews, Willam Mitchell, Dopn Herfort, Ed Seay (with Palmer after Duane), Killian and Nugent (started 1964, near the end of the Jones/Wilson era), Jack Kidwell, etc.


There are many others I could also drag off that list, but I am not sure of the exact era of practice for many, including some I put on this list.

[Ira Fishman]

Jeff,


Given the post-WWII economy, the list of prolific architects is not surprising. My question really is which architects who lived in the shadow of RTJ designed courses that deserve more recognition than the RTJ shadow allowed. By recognition, I mean courses that are compelling to play for strategic, aesthetic, or other reasons.


Thanks.


Ira

[Stewart Abramson]

Between 1947 and his death in 1974, William F Mitchell designed approximately 100 courses and renovated approximately 100 more, in 13 U.S. states, Canada and Portugal. He began as an associate of Orrin Smith (who had worked for Donald Ross) before going out on his own. He typically did not move much dirt and didn't do many big budget courses

[Cliff Hamm]

Yes, RTJ and Wilson garnerd most of the attention from 1950-1965 or so.


Active ASGCA members in that period (working on things like affordable muni courses rather than US Open venues and high profile resorts) included, among others, Wayne Styles, Robert White, William Tucker, Willard Wilkinson, James Harrison, Vernon Macan, Billy Bell, Howard Watson, Norman Woods, Press Maxwell, CE Robinson, Ralph Plummer, Lawrence Hughs, Floyd Farley, Warren Cantrell, Mark Mahannah, George Cobb, Willam Neff, Alfred Tull, Ellis Maples,  Fred Garbin, Francis Duane (with Palmer for a bit, and only architect to ever die of an onsite infection), Larry Packard, Arthur Snyder, John Darrah, Percy Clifford, Bill Amick, Al Zikourus, Phil Wogan, Hentry Hughes, Dick Phelps, Dave Gill, Milt Coggins, Bruce and Jerry Matthews, Willam Mitchell, Dopn Herfort, Ed Seay (with Palmer after Duane), Killian and Nugent (started 1964, near the end of the Jones/Wilson era), Jack Kidwell, etc.


There are many others I could also drag off that list, but I am not sure of the exact era of practice for many, including some I put on this list.

Geoffrey Cornish?

[Tim Martin]

Yes, RTJ and Wilson garnerd most of the attention from 1950-1965 or so.


Active ASGCA members in that period (working on things like affordable muni courses rather than US Open venues and high profile resorts) included, among others, Wayne Styles, Robert White, William Tucker, Willard Wilkinson, James Harrison, Vernon Macan, Billy Bell, Howard Watson, Norman Woods, Press Maxwell, CE Robinson, Ralph Plummer, Lawrence Hughs, Floyd Farley, Warren Cantrell, Mark Mahannah, George Cobb, Willam Neff, Alfred Tull, Ellis Maples,  Fred Garbin, Francis Duane (with Palmer for a bit, and only architect to ever die of an onsite infection), Larry Packard, Arthur Snyder, John Darrah, Percy Clifford, Bill Amick, Al Zikourus, Phil Wogan, Hentry Hughes, Dick Phelps, Dave Gill, Milt Coggins, Bruce and Jerry Matthews, Willam Mitchell, Dopn Herfort, Ed Seay (with Palmer after Duane), Killian and Nugent (started 1964, near the end of the Jones/Wilson era), Jack Kidwell, etc.


There are many others I could also drag off that list, but I am not sure of the exact era of practice for many, including some I put on this list.

Geoffrey Cornish?

Cliff-No doubt Cornish should be listed with quite a run from the late 1950’s to the early 1990’s predominantly in New England. He covered all the bases in my home state of Connecticut with privates, publics and municipals to his credit and was a past president of the ASGCA as well as a recipient of their Donald Ross award.

[Bret Lawrence]

Here are two articles from an architect who lived through most of the Golden Age and RTJ era.  Alfred Tull discusses some of the issues designers faced in the 1940’s and 50’s.  He also makes a few predictions that seem very accurate. I included links to the articles if they are too hard to read on here.


The first article is titled “Reviews Quarter Century of Golf Architecture” from Golfdom., September 1946:




https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/1946sep42.pdf


This second article is titled:”Lower Costs, Lower Scores Asked in Course Design”, from Golfdom., March 1957:




https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/1957mar86.pdf

[Tom_Doak]

It's nice that you all are name-checking all these old fellows [Geoff Cornish was a saint of a man], but I am calling you all out for pretending their work might have been special. 


You can't give them special credit without naming the courses that showed them to be special, and hardly anyone here has named any courses. 


I just looked back to fact-check myself here and the only example is Tamiment . . . which is actually an RTJ course!

[Jeff Schley]

Although maybe the dark days of golf course architecture, it did begin the desert golf course era. Thunderbird CC (Lawrence Hughes) in Palm Springs in the early 50's and others, Desert Forest in early 60's. So this period did provide us something we hadn't had previously.

[Tom_Doak]

Although maybe the dark days of golf course architecture, it did begin the desert golf course era. Thunderbird CC (Lawrence Hughes) in Palm Springs in the early 50's and others, Desert Forest in early 60's. So this period did provide us something we hadn't had previously.

Desert Forest was special.  Good call.  Kudos to Red Lawrence , who nobody had on their bingo card, including Jeff B’s long list of names.  Was he not an ASGCA member?

[Jeff Schley]

Although maybe the dark days of golf course architecture, it did begin the desert golf course era. Thunderbird CC (Lawrence Hughes) in Palm Springs in the early 50's and others, Desert Forest in early 60's. So this period did provide us something we hadn't had previously.

Desert Forest was special.  Good call.  Kudos to Red Lawrence , who nobody had on their bingo card, including Jeff B’s long list of names.  Was he not an ASGCA member?

True I was scanning Jeff's list and didn't see him, but believe he was one of the first ASCGA members if I recall correctly,

[Tim Martin]

It's nice that you all are name-checking all these old fellows [Geoff Cornish was a saint of a man], but I am calling you all out for pretending their work might have been special. 


You can't give them special credit without naming the courses that showed them to be special, and hardly anyone here has named any courses. 


I just looked back to fact-check myself here and the only example is Tamiment . . . which is actually an RTJ course!

Tom-After looking at the list of courses that Cornish designed that I’ve played I can’t argue that there were any truly special efforts. Both he and Al Zikorus got a lot of work in Connecticut but weren’t “overshadowed” by RTJ in the sense of Ira’s original post. I included him because I thought he deserved to be on the list that Jeff Brauer put forward.

[Ira Fishman]

Red Lawrence worked for Travis and then Flynn. Ellis Maples learned at least through his Father from Ross. (I have not played Grandfather Mountain or CC of NC but both are well regarded).


My sense is that the Depression and WWII interrupted the kind of learning from other accomplished architects that was common from around 1900 until the Depression. My working hypothesis is that what might have contributed to the move away from Golden Age design.


Thoughts?

[Bret Lawrence]

The courses by this generation may not be as special on the Golf Rankings list, but this was the generation that brought golf to the masses.  They built on terrible properties closer to the population centers, they concentrated on maintenance more than architectural flair.  They made golf affordable. Many of the architects courses from this generation you can find close to home.  I can also score a yearly membership at most Cornish courses in CT for what it would cost for a long weekend at one of todays “special” resorts.  It may not be special to architecture enthusiasts, but to a lot of average golfers who don’t care as much about architecture, it is a very nice affordable alternative.


I realize that the best work Cornish did is the epitome of an average course, but I feel like it was enough to make me want to see what else might be out there architecturally. He filled a niche that needed to be filled.  Today we are creating niches and then filling them, I think that is the biggest difference between the generations.


To all the architects, do you ever consider a smaller course inside a bigger course when you are designing courses?  What I mean is if the economy tanks again one day and maintenance becomes the catch word again, will your course still be interesting with shrunken greens and shrunken fairways?  We are in a time today just like we were in the Golden Age where money is flying around like crazy, so I wonder if anyone wonders how their work would look if it were maintained with 1960’s maintenance practices?

[Tom_Doak]

I realize that the best work Cornish did is the epitome of an average course, but I feel like it was enough to make me want to see what else might be out there architecturally. He filled a niche that needed to be filled.  Today we are creating niches and then filling them, I think that is the biggest difference between the generations.

To all the architects, do you ever consider a smaller course inside a bigger course when you are designing courses?  What I mean is if the economy tanks again one day and maintenance becomes the catch word again, will your course still be interesting with shrunken greens and shrunken fairways?  We are in a time today just like we were in the Golden Age where money is flying around like crazy, so I wonder if anyone wonders how their work would look if it were maintained with 1960’s maintenance practices?

Bret:


I grew up on a course Geoffrey Cornish designed for a fee of $1000, and if he hadn't built it, I probably wouldn't be doing this today.  [Not only that, but when I wrote letters to several architects as a freshman at MIT, the most encouraging response I got was from Geoff:  "There is always room in this business for someone with REAL talent."]


So I have great respect for what he did.  But it wasn't like his great designs were being overshadowed, I don't think that was ever his goal, even though he had learned the business from the flamboyant Stanley Thompson.


As to your other question, everything I build would still be quite playable if the maintenance budget were cut in half, as long as they didn't make bad changes to the mowing lines when shrinking it up.  Minimizing forced carries into the greens so you can play an approach from a bad lie is a major factor; shallow targets are also harder to hold.  And some people would probably enjoy my greens a lot more if they slowed them down a notch or two!

[Ian Andrew]

A few thoughts....


I remember researching this period and I was a little surprised how many were originally Civil Engineers. Many began as Golf Superintendents. Other than Trent - and a few others-  it was a new generation of designers.

The era began during a really significant change in American society. Modernization, convenience, efficiency were the new mantra. People wanted the future and not the past. The new attitudes changed golf design too.
 
Btw, I expect every city probably probably has a Modern Era course that was actually really good. Unfortunately, not all of these survived city expansion and new highways. Ours was Box Grove GC in Markham. It was done by a local pro and began as a private course. I was bought by IBM and eventually turned into houses. 7 holes still remain in the Rouge Valley as part of Markham Green. I played it multiple times as a kid and it was fabulous. Large corridors, nice feature work, lay of the land, fantastic green contours and (because you could back then) the river was very much in play.

[Tim Gavrich]

Seems like Robert Bruce Harris has not yet been mentioned on this thread; he was active around the time in question. Of his courses I've only played the CC of Florida. I like it a lot, although I know Lester George's work there has perhaps given it a mixed midcentury/contemporary-throwback feel.

[Bret Lawrence]

I realize that the best work Cornish did is the epitome of an average course, but I feel like it was enough to make me want to see what else might be out there architecturally. He filled a niche that needed to be filled.  Today we are creating niches and then filling them, I think that is the biggest difference between the generations.

To all the architects, do you ever consider a smaller course inside a bigger course when you are designing courses?  What I mean is if the economy tanks again one day and maintenance becomes the catch word again, will your course still be interesting with shrunken greens and shrunken fairways?  We are in a time today just like we were in the Golden Age where money is flying around like crazy, so I wonder if anyone wonders how their work would look if it were maintained with 1960’s maintenance practices?

Bret:


I grew up on a course Geoffrey Cornish designed for a fee of $1000, and if he hadn't built it, I probably wouldn't be doing this today.  [Not only that, but when I wrote letters to several architects as a freshman at MIT, the most encouraging response I got was from Geoff:  "There is always room in this business for someone with REAL talent."]


So I have great respect for what he did.  But it wasn't like his great designs were being overshadowed, I don't think that was ever his goal, even though he had learned the business from the flamboyant Stanley Thompson.


As to your other question, everything I build would still be quite playable if the maintenance budget were cut in half, as long as they didn't make bad changes to the mowing lines when shrinking it up.  Minimizing forced carries into the greens so you can play an approach from a bad lie is a major factor; shallow targets are also harder to hold.  And some people would probably enjoy my greens a lot more if they slowed them down a notch or two!

Tom,


Thank you for your answer.  I would agree Cornish and many of his contemporaries were not trying to outshine RTJ.  I may have overlooked the overshadowing part of the question, but it’s nice to see the respect you show for Mr. Cornish.


To answer your original question, I guess my answer would be Chicago Golf Club.  I have heard stories that Cornish was hired by Chicago Golf Club and didn’t make any changes to the course, whether he was coerced into that decision or not, I don’t know. Keeping his hands off of that course was special.


Bret

[Tom_Doak]

To answer your original question, I guess my answer would be Chicago Golf Club.  I have heard stories that Cornish was hired by Chicago Golf Club and didn’t make any changes to the course, whether he was coerced into that decision or not, I don’t know. Keeping his hands off of that course was special.

Where did you hear that?  It could be true, but I have consulted there for many years and no one has ever mentioned that story.

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